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zeynep's profile
zeynep tufekci
zeynep tufekci
zeynep tufekci
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@zeynep

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zeynep tufekciVerified account

@zeynep

Complex systems, wicked problems. Society, technology, science and more. @UNC professor. @NYTimes columnist. My newsletter is @insight: http://www.theinsight.org 

floating in a most peculiar way
theinsight.org
Joined August 2009

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    1. Prof. Jose-Luis Jimenez‏Verified account @jljcolorado 20 Dec 2021
      Replying to @Merz @kprather88 and

      Prof. Jose-Luis Jimenez Retweeted Prof. Jose-Luis Jimenez

      It is physics. Droplets are projectiles, larger than 0.3 mm when talking. They are unaffected by air currents, unless it is extremely windy. So they'll do the same indoors and outdoors. There are papers on this, but I reviewed the physics on this thread:https://twitter.com/jljcolorado/status/1292880342227984385 …

      Prof. Jose-Luis Jimenez added,

      Prof. Jose-Luis JimenezVerified account @jljcolorado
      1/ Aerosols, droplets, & “flexible droplets” Trying to clarify key aspects. Details complex, give bottom lines 1st: Bottom line 1: If fall within 1-2 m of the person (WHO or CDC droplets), then **have to** infect by ballistic impact (“angry birds”). Cannot infect by inhalation pic.twitter.com/rixqF4iSrI
      Show this thread
      1 reply 10 retweets 118 likes
    2. Prof. Jose-Luis Jimenez‏Verified account @jljcolorado 20 Dec 2021
      Replying to @jljcolorado @Merz and

      The key is that if they can be inhaled, they are < 100 microns. And then they stay on the air > 1 m and do NOT behave like ballistic droplets. Sometimes ppl resort to droplets that behave like aerosols, but then they are still "droplets". But there is no such thing, unphysical

      2 replies 2 retweets 78 likes
    3. Alex Merz‏ @Merz 20 Dec 2021
      Replying to @jljcolorado @kprather88 and

      Nothing in that thread explains why you'd expect outdoor transmission to drop by only 2x if the mechanism is droplet transmission.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Alex Merz‏ @Merz 20 Dec 2021
      Replying to @Merz @jljcolorado and

      Among other things, people tend to be further apart outdoors, and they tend to be outdoors when it's sunny. Pyrimidine dimers are a thing.

      5 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. Prof. Jose-Luis Jimenez‏Verified account @jljcolorado 20 Dec 2021
      Replying to @Merz @kprather88 and

      I have not found data to substantiate that the conversational distance is higher outdoors than outdoors. And UV radiation inactivates the virus, but in 5-30 min, too slow too matter.

      6 replies 3 retweets 97 likes
    6. Alex Merz‏ @Merz 20 Dec 2021
      Replying to @jljcolorado @kprather88 and

      Halftimes far shorter than 5-30 minutes have been reported.

      3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. Alex Merz‏ @Merz 20 Dec 2021
      Replying to @Merz @jljcolorado and

      "I have not found data to substantiate that the conversational distance is higher outdoors than outdoors." And that's just silly.

      4 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    8. Alex Merz‏ @Merz 20 Dec 2021
      Replying to @Merz @jljcolorado and

      What this tells me is that rather than talking forthrightly about uncertainties in your interpretation, you are more than willing to simply assert that they are not uncertainties.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Prof. Jose-Luis Jimenez‏Verified account @jljcolorado 20 Dec 2021
      Replying to @Merz @kprather88 and

      I have talked a lot about uncertainties. Have looked for such data for a long time, and I have observed the distance myself, and not seen a clear difference. But let's say that there is 10-20% more distance. Would that cut transmission x20? That's not plausible.

      2 replies 0 retweets 46 likes
    10. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 20 Dec 2021
      Replying to @jljcolorado @Merz and

      Off the top of my head, why would ventilation matter indoors if it were mainly droplets, as ballistic particles, same behaviour. Why would plexiglass—which would block droplets—be associated with *higher* rates of infection, as predicted from aerosols, via ventilation dead zones.

      2 replies 8 retweets 72 likes
      zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 20 Dec 2021
      Replying to @zeynep @jljcolorado and

      Why would HEPA filters work? They aren't between you and the person you are speaking with, should be irrelevant for droplets. How could there be so much overdispersion with a mainly droplet, thus, ballistic trajectory, particles?

      2:40 PM - 20 Dec 2021
      • 5 Retweets
      • 51 Likes
      • Judith Far-She Aneer J Shepherd Laura McCall #NoMassInfection Katja Petzold Scott Beaumont 🏴 Oliver Omicronwell themjdworldwide Coffee Monstress
      3 replies 5 retweets 51 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Alex Merz‏ @Merz 20 Dec 2021
          Replying to @zeynep @jljcolorado and

          I'm not arguing against aerosol transmission, Zeynep, as you'd know if you'd read the thread. I'm persuaded that aerosol transmission occurs and that it is a significant component of total transmission. But the evidence that transmission is only or mainly aerosol is weak.

          7 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
        3. Prof. Jose-Luis Jimenez‏Verified account @jljcolorado 20 Dec 2021
          Replying to @Merz @zeynep and

          But where is the evidence that droplets are important? it is not weak, it is nonexistent as far as I know. It always goes back to the error "close proximity = droplets" and the error "it can't be airborne because of R0" and such

          1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
        4. Show replies
        1. New conversation
        2. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 20 Dec 2021
          Replying to @zeynep @jljcolorado and

          Once you posit that aerosols are the main route of transmission, every known significant fact from the epidemiology fits easily within a framework compatible with basic physics. When you posit droplets as main route of transmission, the empirical facts don't make sense.

          3 replies 10 retweets 48 likes
        3. Alex Merz‏ @Merz 20 Dec 2021
          Replying to @zeynep @jljcolorado and

          That is the case only if you posit a dichotomy -- an all-or-none distinction.

          0 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        4. End of conversation
        1. gardengirl778‏ @gardengirl778 20 Dec 2021
          Replying to @zeynep @jljcolorado and

          :)

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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