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zeynep's profile
zeynep tufekci
zeynep tufekci
zeynep tufekci
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@zeynep

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zeynep tufekciVerified account

@zeynep

Complex systems, wicked problems. Society, technology, science and more. @UNC professor. @NYTimes columnist. My newsletter is @insight: http://www.theinsight.org 

floating in a most peculiar way
theinsight.org
Joined August 2009

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    2. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 17 Apr 2021

      zeynep tufekci Retweeted Tom Clarke

      Yeah. The point was on what it really takes to have deep, substantive critical thinking and challenge, and what devolves into games that don't. Again: I pay people way above industry rates out of my own pocket to take me down as substantively as they can.https://twitter.com/tomeclarke/status/1383395983984259076?s=20 …

      zeynep tufekci added,

      Tom Clarke @tomeclarke
      Replying to @tomeclarke @zeynep
      Is there another definition that makes this bad? Because this seems to me the kind of thing you do if you're not singlemindedly focussed on getting other people to agree with you. Steelmanning is a variation of this.
      2 replies 3 retweets 53 likes
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    6. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 17 Apr 2021

      I usually avoid quote tweets exactly because of this problem and I am doing it here on purpose, tbh. I could do it in a much worse fashion, I know the game. I am also kinda good at devil's advocate, kinda sadly tbh, and I try always to stop myself because it dulls my thinking.

      7 replies 0 retweets 51 likes
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    8. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 17 Apr 2021

      zeynep tufekci Retweeted Tom Clarke

      You can either try to understand what she's trying to say by looking at what was in the full thread, or ask her, or just think about it, or you can screenshot it out of context and go "hurl me into the sun" and get retweets and complaints about the woke.https://twitter.com/tomeclarke/status/1383402232821866496 …

      zeynep tufekci added,

      Tom Clarke @tomeclarke
      Yeh, I think there's a reasonable point to be made here. Devil's advocate argumentation _can_ be a kind of disingenuous argument from a fixed position rather than a way of being open minded. But that's hard to square with the sweeping statements in the original tweet.
      3 replies 4 retweets 67 likes
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    9. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 17 Apr 2021

      zeynep tufekci Retweeted Michael David Smith

      Ah crap I screenshotted from two different threads—my mistake!— and now the other one I wanted is gone. You are right, and this is why I don't normally quote tweet. Let me correct and see if I can redo the thread.https://twitter.com/MichaelDavSmith/status/1383404575172874254 …

      zeynep tufekci added,

      Michael David SmithVerified account @MichaelDavSmith
      Replying to @zeynep
      Can you please address why you falsely claimed @jessesingal ignored follow-up tweets from the person he was criticizing? I'm truly astonished that you did this, Zeynep. I have nothing but respect for all you've done in the last 14 months but this is so dishonest and so unlike you
      4 replies 0 retweets 14 likes
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    10. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 17 Apr 2021

      Hang on folks, apologies. I have become an argument and an example against quote-tweeting (yikes, lol, sorry!) in my argument against quote-tweeting and why these platforms aren't conducive to this.

      1 reply 0 retweets 20 likes
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      zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 17 Apr 2021

      zeynep tufekci Retweeted Jesse Singal

      Okey dokey. To restate: I object to this because the "devil's advocate" method, especially in context of platform design, encourages empty dunking that passes as critical thinking, and "hurl me into the sun" is an almost comical example of exactly that!https://twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1383267303035346949 …

      zeynep tufekci added,

      Jesse SingalVerified account @jessesingal
      hurl me into the sun pic.twitter.com/LJz7D3g3zA
      Show this thread
      6:12 AM - 17 Apr 2021
      • 21 Retweets
      • 224 Likes
      • Rebecca Davies🗽😷 Laeeth unions are good, actually Michael Kieval Max C JD Just an Ordinary Bianca 🌈🌐🧦 Airship Chronos says TRANS RIGHTS! Alessio G 🇫🇷🇮🇹
      7 replies 21 retweets 224 likes
        1. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 17 Apr 2021

          zeynep tufekci Retweeted zeynep tufekci

          Let me add this: you have to think of it all in the context of today's public sphere and attention economy. "Devil's advocate" isn't a debate skill that's operating in a vacuum, but in a world where gamified contrarianism/DA is lucrative and rewarding.https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1383410899155750916 …

          zeynep tufekci added,

          zeynep tufekciVerified account @zeynep
          Replying to @MatthewLNorman @tomeclarke
          You have to look at it in the context of today's public sphere, though. Everything—design, attention economy, political structure—is encouraging it but in the empty, gamified form. If nobody ever did it, I might think, yeah let's encourage it. But it's the opposite.
          2 replies 11 retweets 60 likes
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        2. Tom Clarke‏ @tomeclarke 17 Apr 2021
          Replying to @zeynep

          Yeh, for sure there's an interesting argument to be had here. And maybe the distinction is whether devil's advocate is a debating ploy, or whether you're actually genuinely considering an argument from a perspective that you don't already hold.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Tom Clarke‏ @tomeclarke 17 Apr 2021
          Replying to @tomeclarke @zeynep

          Perhaps this is more about 'debate' as a method for exploring arguments. This wasn't something that was part of my schooling so perhaps there's some context I'm missing. Using devil's argument/steelmanning in a conversation is perhaps different to using it in a debate.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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        1. monsieur durée‏ @monsieurduree 17 Apr 2021
          Replying to @zeynep

          good thread

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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        2. blergh, PhD‏ @obsolutdisgrace 17 Apr 2021
          Replying to @zeynep

          “There is no point in arguing from the perspective of evil” is an unserious framing of her thesis (a play on the DA term itself) while simultaneously (and more worryingly) tacitly categorizing opposing views as morally invalid.

          1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
        3. _‏ @darwinsRhea 17 Apr 2021
          Replying to @obsolutdisgrace @zeynep

          yeah, very strange to imagine a good/evil dichotomy here

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. End of conversation
        1. This Tweet is unavailable.
        2. Kyle Tolan‏ @misterkyle1901 17 Apr 2021
          Replying to @misterkyle1901 @zeynep @RottenInDenmark

          Anyways, more often than not, those arguments are used to imply that the original argument isn’t objective or sober, when in fact, they are, and the person playing devil’s advocate is simply not informed enough to argue in the nuances of the original statement.

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
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