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zeynep's profile
zeynep tufekci
zeynep tufekci
zeynep tufekci
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@zeynep

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zeynep tufekciVerified account

@zeynep

Complex systems, wicked problems. Society, technology, science and more. @UNC professor. @NYTimes columnist. My newsletter is @insight: http://www.theinsight.org 

floating in a most peculiar way
theinsight.org
Joined August 2009

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    3. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 17 Apr 2021

      If you encourage the procedural, gamified and contrarianist version that "devil's advocate" often becomes, and don't pay attention to preparation, substance and framework (like these platforms), you don't get the critical thinking you want in the world but "let's make shit up."

      2 replies 41 retweets 249 likes
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    4. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 17 Apr 2021

      Mindless and heavily-procedural contrarianism is a plague on substantive debate and critical thinking. Lemme come up with a clever, contrarian point is too-heavily prized and it usually *displaces* the kind of debate one needs. I saw it so much this pandemic.

      12 replies 59 retweets 403 likes
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    6. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 17 Apr 2021

      zeynep tufekci Retweeted Tom Clarke

      Yeah. The point was on what it really takes to have deep, substantive critical thinking and challenge, and what devolves into games that don't. Again: I pay people way above industry rates out of my own pocket to take me down as substantively as they can.https://twitter.com/tomeclarke/status/1383395983984259076?s=20 …

      zeynep tufekci added,

      Tom Clarke @tomeclarke
      Replying to @tomeclarke @zeynep
      Is there another definition that makes this bad? Because this seems to me the kind of thing you do if you're not singlemindedly focussed on getting other people to agree with you. Steelmanning is a variation of this.
      2 replies 3 retweets 53 likes
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      zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 17 Apr 2021

      I usually avoid quote tweets exactly because of this problem and I am doing it here on purpose, tbh. I could do it in a much worse fashion, I know the game. I am also kinda good at devil's advocate, kinda sadly tbh, and I try always to stop myself because it dulls my thinking.

      5:41 AM - 17 Apr 2021
      • 51 Likes
      • the blandalorian Stimmy Hoffa felix James Lewis Douglas 'Skoryy' Hayden Calvus Virginicus Koopa Nick Kossovan 🙏 ❤️ 🌎 shhmiguelito
      7 replies 0 retweets 51 likes
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        2. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 17 Apr 2021

          zeynep tufekci Retweeted Tom Clarke

          You can either try to understand what she's trying to say by looking at what was in the full thread, or ask her, or just think about it, or you can screenshot it out of context and go "hurl me into the sun" and get retweets and complaints about the woke.https://twitter.com/tomeclarke/status/1383402232821866496 …

          zeynep tufekci added,

          Tom Clarke @tomeclarke
          Yeh, I think there's a reasonable point to be made here. Devil's advocate argumentation _can_ be a kind of disingenuous argument from a fixed position rather than a way of being open minded. But that's hard to square with the sweeping statements in the original tweet.
          3 replies 4 retweets 67 likes
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        3. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 17 Apr 2021

          zeynep tufekci Retweeted Michael David Smith

          Ah crap I screenshotted from two different threads—my mistake!— and now the other one I wanted is gone. You are right, and this is why I don't normally quote tweet. Let me correct and see if I can redo the thread.https://twitter.com/MichaelDavSmith/status/1383404575172874254 …

          zeynep tufekci added,

          Michael David SmithVerified account @MichaelDavSmith
          Replying to @zeynep
          Can you please address why you falsely claimed @jessesingal ignored follow-up tweets from the person he was criticizing? I'm truly astonished that you did this, Zeynep. I have nothing but respect for all you've done in the last 14 months but this is so dishonest and so unlike you
          4 replies 0 retweets 14 likes
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        4. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 17 Apr 2021

          Hang on folks, apologies. I have become an argument and an example against quote-tweeting (yikes, lol, sorry!) in my argument against quote-tweeting and why these platforms aren't conducive to this.

          1 reply 0 retweets 20 likes
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        5. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 17 Apr 2021

          zeynep tufekci Retweeted Jesse Singal

          Okey dokey. To restate: I object to this because the "devil's advocate" method, especially in context of platform design, encourages empty dunking that passes as critical thinking, and "hurl me into the sun" is an almost comical example of exactly that!https://twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1383267303035346949 …

          zeynep tufekci added,

          Jesse SingalVerified account @jessesingal
          hurl me into the sun pic.twitter.com/LJz7D3g3zA
          Show this thread
          7 replies 21 retweets 224 likes
          Show this thread
        6. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 17 Apr 2021

          zeynep tufekci Retweeted zeynep tufekci

          Let me add this: you have to think of it all in the context of today's public sphere and attention economy. "Devil's advocate" isn't a debate skill that's operating in a vacuum, but in a world where gamified contrarianism/DA is lucrative and rewarding.https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1383410899155750916 …

          zeynep tufekci added,

          zeynep tufekciVerified account @zeynep
          Replying to @MatthewLNorman @tomeclarke
          You have to look at it in the context of today's public sphere, though. Everything—design, attention economy, political structure—is encouraging it but in the empty, gamified form. If nobody ever did it, I might think, yeah let's encourage it. But it's the opposite.
          2 replies 11 retweets 60 likes
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        7. End of conversation
        1. Dylan M. Smith‏ @DylanMSmith3 17 Apr 2021
          Replying to @zeynep

          Right but I've now seen this retweeted from several places--and it's just the screenshot without even the original tweeter so you have no way of seeing the nuanced argument that follows. Common Twitter problem. I only saw the full thread because I follow you.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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        1. Christian Sieber‏ @Kazanir 17 Apr 2021
          Replying to @zeynep

          I have observe that the temptation to engage this way is usually just borne of laziness, or a sometimes-justified disrespect for the counterparty, neither of which are particularly good foundations for action 😂

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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        1. Leigh Caldwell‏ @leighblue 17 Apr 2021
          Replying to @zeynep

          Yes! All JS shows here is that it’s easy to pick holes in the surface expression of an argument, especially on twitter and especially when you don’t look at the context. It’s much harder to think deeply about what the speaker actually means, engage with and develop it.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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        1. CORVID-19‏ @metamachasa 17 Apr 2021
          Replying to @zeynep

          You say you quote tweeted him to make a point about dunking, but Jesse removed their name and didn't QT to avoid dog piling. I struggle to see how he was "dunking" on them and not just reacting to something he thought was a poor point. Not everything has to be a large discussion.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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