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zeynep's profile
zeynep tufekci
zeynep tufekci
zeynep tufekci
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@zeynep

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zeynep tufekciVerified account

@zeynep

Complex systems, wicked problems. Society, technology, science and more. @UNC professor. @NYTimes columnist. My newsletter is @insight: http://www.theinsight.org 

floating in a most peculiar way
theinsight.org
Joined August 2009

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    1. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 13 Dec 2020
      Replying to @angie_rasmussen @SaskiaPopescu @Ryan_Mac_Phd

      This is exactly what you’re missing. There are entire countries who will only do what the WHO recommends. If WHO recommendations didn’t matter, that would be a whole other tragedy but that’s kind of where we’re headed unless they’re fixed.

      1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
    2. Dr. Angela Rasmussen‏Verified account @angie_rasmussen 13 Dec 2020
      Replying to @zeynep @SaskiaPopescu @Ryan_Mac_Phd

      Which countries are we talking about? Because I’m well aware of the WHO’s role in LMIC countries with regard to shaping policy and standing up public health responses. And few countries have fared as poorly as the US.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    3. Dr. Angela Rasmussen‏Verified account @angie_rasmussen 13 Dec 2020
      Replying to @angie_rasmussen @zeynep and

      If the measure of failure is “not wearing masks indoors” or “not emphasizing ventilation” then sure. But if the measure is per capita prevalence and COVID deaths, then one could make the argument that those LMICs have done considerably better than the US.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    4. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 13 Dec 2020
      Replying to @angie_rasmussen @SaskiaPopescu @Ryan_Mac_Phd

      I don’t think anybody’s disagreeing about US failure. Forget indoors, last spring people were facing huge hurdles trying to get masks to people in refugee camps because the World Health Organization was against them.

      2 replies 1 retweet 9 likes
    5. Dr. Angela Rasmussen‏Verified account @angie_rasmussen 13 Dec 2020
      Replying to @zeynep @SaskiaPopescu @Ryan_Mac_Phd

      That is a problem but it’s also not as simple as that. That also has to do with worldwide shortages of PPE and supply chain issues. Not saying WHO was right or they are above criticism but that can’t be laid exclusively at the feet of WHO.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    6. Dr. Angela Rasmussen‏Verified account @angie_rasmussen 13 Dec 2020
      Replying to @angie_rasmussen @zeynep and

      But refugee camps are also not entire LMICs, and I just don’t think the data supports the notion that WHO recommendations have had catastrophic consequences in terms of policy. The worst outcomes have been in countries that disregarded WHO. Like the US.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 13 Dec 2020
      Replying to @angie_rasmussen @SaskiaPopescu @Ryan_Mac_Phd

      If the recommendations matter anywhere they need to be fixed. If we’re saying countries that disregarded key ones have done better, that’s true and a tragedy. United States failed in a different way. United States failure does not mean the WHO doesn’t need fixing.

      1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
    8. Dr. Angela Rasmussen‏Verified account @angie_rasmussen 13 Dec 2020
      Replying to @zeynep @SaskiaPopescu @Ryan_Mac_Phd

      I’m saying that countries that considered WHO recommendations have done better than those that have not. Of course WHO should change based on the global tragedy of this pandemic. But if “needs fixing” means making policy recommendations without supporting data, I don’t agree.

      3 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    9. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 13 Dec 2020
      Replying to @angie_rasmussen @SaskiaPopescu @Ryan_Mac_Phd

      I’m giving a very concrete example! Don’t wear masks indoors if separated by a single meter was standard recommendation until about 10 days ago. “Needs fixing” is that it’s ridiculous it took that long. There has been full court effort to update just that at least since April.

      2 replies 0 retweets 8 likes
    10. Dr. Angela Rasmussen‏Verified account @angie_rasmussen 13 Dec 2020
      Replying to @zeynep @SaskiaPopescu @Ryan_Mac_Phd

      Yes I get that, and the process for updating guidance should be more transparent and dynamic. But is there evidence that this was uncritically implemented as policy and that made outcomes worse? Recommendations should be based on evidence, not public outcry.

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
      zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 13 Dec 2020
      Replying to @angie_rasmussen @SaskiaPopescu @Ryan_Mac_Phd

      We tried with lots of evidence. Lots of people did. I mean you object to US states without mask mandates, not the World Health Organization that said they were unnecessary if separated by a meter until 10 days ago? (Again the states are failing on their own.)

      10:04 AM - 13 Dec 2020
      • 10 Likes
      • Kimberly Prather, Ph.D. C Pita THE Quality Cookware is NOT a problem Pepe Silvia, MD Jessica Bassett Lucas Rocha-Melogno, PhD Information Junkie 👨‍💻 Lois McKeown
      3 replies 0 retweets 10 likes
        1. Dr. Angela Rasmussen‏Verified account @angie_rasmussen 13 Dec 2020
          Replying to @zeynep @SaskiaPopescu @Ryan_Mac_Phd

          I’ve seen no evidence that countries following that specific WHO recommendation to the letter had demonstrably worse outcomes. The evidence you mention is largely from lab or modeling studies, and as you have written about wonderfully, doesn’t always translate to the real world.

          0 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
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        2. Ryan McNamara  🧬‏ @Ryan_Mac_Phd 13 Dec 2020
          Replying to @zeynep @angie_rasmussen @SaskiaPopescu

          Individual states have the ability to enforce the policy, not the WHO. That's my point. Do I think that there's a one meter rule to transmission? Of course not. But there's still states that won't enforce these measures. To me, that makes them far worse offenders than the WHO.

          1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
        3. Dr. Angela Rasmussen‏Verified account @angie_rasmussen 13 Dec 2020
          Replying to @Ryan_Mac_Phd @zeynep @SaskiaPopescu

          And it just goes to show, policy based on WHO recommendations-> less spread, better outcomes. Policy ignoring or rejecting WHO recommendations-> more spread, worse outcomes. WHO is not above criticism but they are not the enemy.

          0 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
        4. End of conversation
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        2. Information Junkie  👨‍💻‏ @JustTheFacts37 13 Dec 2020
          Replying to @zeynep @angie_rasmussen and

          Has felt to me that WHO has acted more like a corporation, seeking to avoid liability by only advocating for mitigation measures on which they have concrete data Rather than as a public health agency, by including measures that evidence suggests may help but are not yet proven

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Dr. Angela Rasmussen‏Verified account @angie_rasmussen 13 Dec 2020
          Replying to @JustTheFacts37 @zeynep and

          Part of this is that, as the US has illustrated for everyone, WHO is made up of voluntary participation of member states. They have to make broadly applicable recommendations and that means they have to be cautious when making policy based on unsettled science.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
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