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zeynep's profile
zeynep tufekci
zeynep tufekci
zeynep tufekci
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@zeynep

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zeynep tufekciVerified account

@zeynep

Complex systems, wicked problems. Society, technology, science and more. @UNC professor. @NYTimes columnist. My newsletter is @insight: http://www.theinsight.org 

floating in a most peculiar way
theinsight.org
Joined August 2009

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    1. Rochelle Terman‏ @RochelleTerman 31 Oct 2020
      Replying to @zeynep @Chris_arnade @antoniogm

      I'm sympathetic to this point (we all know much less than we think we do.) But it seems like an epistemic problem to me. Knowledge/prediction of airplanes is of a different kind (not just degree) than knowledge/prediction of complex social phenomena.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    2. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 31 Oct 2020
      Replying to @RochelleTerman @Chris_arnade @antoniogm

      Commercial aviation is an example of very complex social phenomena—like all such phenomenon, field ranges from aerodynamics to manufacturing to foreign policy to sociology to human psychology to economics and more: one in which pilots have close to zero autonomy or control over.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    3. Rochelle Terman‏ @RochelleTerman 31 Oct 2020
      Replying to @zeynep @Chris_arnade @antoniogm

      I certainly don't think pilots should be running the show :) But, empirically, commercial aviation has demonstrated a degree of practical success that simply can't be compared to foreign policy -- that seems uncontroversial to me. So the question is why.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
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    5. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 31 Oct 2020
      Replying to @Chris_arnade @RochelleTerman @antoniogm

      One important answer is that, contra your claim, Chris, pilots have practically *zero* say over commercial aviation, and we have taken the whole field out of their hand and decided, politically, where the trade-offs are, and that they are in the realm of safety. 1/2

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    6. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 31 Oct 2020
      Replying to @zeynep @Chris_arnade and

      So it's the politics of aviation that make it safe, not advanced technical understanding of aerodynamics. Which is my point, again, almost every advanced technical field thinks it's their technical understanding and always forgets what had to be done to get it under control.

      1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
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    9. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 31 Oct 2020
      Replying to @Chris_arnade @RochelleTerman @antoniogm

      You're defining the domain of the question different for both, and can't see it. Interesting. Yeah, if foreign policy was regulated within an inch of its life and the "expert" was only going to execute under very strict and narrow controls, like pilots, you'd want the expert.

      0 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
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      zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 31 Oct 2020
      Replying to @Chris_arnade @RochelleTerman @antoniogm

      Understanding of aerodynamics, alone, gives us no magical public benefit and pilots running the show would be catastrophic. Taming the whole field and then pretending it's the technocratic side that gave us the public benefit is .. just not true. This is technocratic amnesia.

      12:11 PM - 31 Oct 2020
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      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
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        2. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 31 Oct 2020
          Replying to @koulmomo @Chris_arnade @RochelleTerman

          The idea there's some independent "correctness" that's defined by expertise rather than the trade-offs we've imposed on the field is so profoundly off the mark for commercial aviation that I really am genuinely interested in how this isn't obvious. Especially after Boeing Max.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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        1. Michael Hoexter  🔥‏ @mike_cal 31 Oct 2020
          Replying to @zeynep @Chris_arnade and

          Technocrats tend to think with their tool at the center of the universe rather than humanity as the center of (our) universe. With the danger of ecocide we have to think with our ecosystemic web as the center of (our) universe.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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        1. Bill Hooker‏ @sennoma 31 Oct 2020
          Replying to @zeynep @Chris_arnade and

          At one point in this thread, Chris' "airplane mechanics" became Zeynep's "pilots", and there's a big difference. I think this might be why you two seem to be talking past one another. In terms of "hard" foundations, pilots sit in the grey zone between mechanics and policy wonks.

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