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zeynep's profile
zeynep tufekci
zeynep tufekci
zeynep tufekci
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@zeynep

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zeynep tufekciVerified account

@zeynep

Complex systems, wicked problems. Society, technology, science and more. @UNC professor. @NYTimes columnist. My newsletter is @insight: http://www.theinsight.org 

floating in a most peculiar way
theinsight.org
Joined August 2009

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    1. Peter Todd‏ @peterktodd 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @peterktodd @zeynep @GarethDennis

      It's also been rarely reported that the hard shelled sub was actually a *second* attempt — SpaceX worked to help another company w/ a few soft, inflatable, stretcher-like rescue pods. The anti-SV argument just desn't work here (an exception IMO; usually I'd criticise SV).

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    2. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @peterktodd @GarethDennis

      Cave-diving is a thing. That rescue was a lot of cave-diving—and modern cave-diving is steeped in protocols, and innovation occurs within that context. Also I'm not criticizing developing a backup plan but doing it with a lot of publicity. That is a problem in rescue situations.+

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    3. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @zeynep @peterktodd @GarethDennis

      zeynep tufekci Retweeted zeynep tufekci

      Elon deleted his tweets in response here (he called the caver who convinced the Thai authorities and brought in the divers a "pedo guy" 😬) but here's the issue in a nutshell:https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1018506650087559169 …

      zeynep tufekci added,

      zeynep tufekciVerified account @zeynep
      Replying to @elonmusk
      But my point isn't to criticize you for exploring a back-up option (is it still in development with domain experts?) but that the kind of publicity you seek/bring has downsides whatever your intentions may be, and that, broadly, the incredible rescue has broader lessons for tech.
      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    4. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @zeynep @peterktodd @GarethDennis

      zeynep tufekci Retweeted zeynep tufekci

      Actually check out this thread of mine. (Him deleting his tweets has messed up the order)https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1018498560789286912 …

      zeynep tufekci added,

      zeynep tufekciVerified account @zeynep
      Replying to @elonmusk
      So Vern is the diver who was among the first there, dug up the maps, brought in the other divers, figured out where the boys were and convinced authorities. Look beyond your irritation with his irritation and listen for a sec why he might be irritated, ok? https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/13/uk/thai-cave-rescue-british-divers-intl/index.html …
      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    5. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @zeynep @peterktodd @GarethDennis

      Screenshot format. A high-profile rescue is as much about managing the officials and everyone who was (unworkable) ideas as the rescue. The number of divers who could carry this out were so few that rescuehalted while they slept. Backup option should have been quietly developed.pic.twitter.com/1QZpxcKjXy

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    6. Peter Todd‏ @peterktodd 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @zeynep @GarethDennis

      Indeed, quiet is good. But why was this so noisy? Frankly because of the media whipping up controversy more than anything. Musk's tweets *were* reasonable and took care to not give himself credit. Media presented it very differently and created a shit storm of controversy.

      2 replies 1 retweet 0 likes
    7. Peter Todd‏ @peterktodd 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @peterktodd @zeynep @GarethDennis

      I know people who've done cave rescue (and been victims in cave rescues) and they too complain about media. But that's it, they're complaining about the media itself...

      1 reply 1 retweet 0 likes
    8. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @peterktodd @GarethDennis

      Agree about the media part, though social media is media under his control. Also, from what I can tell, the cave-diver community was agnostic to "okay, let's see" to Musk as backup *until* he started tweeting videos & the widespread media coverage. Then they feared the PR affect.

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    9. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @zeynep @peterktodd @GarethDennis

      The kind of iterative design we see in other safety cultures requires thick skin. Do you ever read incidents sections of scuba or caving boards?😱 NTSB type debriefings etc. Musk's thin skin to criticism isn't just a personality issue: iterative safety requires thick, thick skin.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    10. Peter Todd‏ @peterktodd 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @zeynep @GarethDennis

      Yes I have; I am a caver. Sorry, but I see both "sub" solutions as sane iterative design based on sound engineering. There's just nothing to criticise there given the constraints. And iterative design *is* something SpaceX has lots or experience with.

      2 replies 1 retweet 0 likes
      zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @peterktodd @GarethDennis

      Caver on ground says it was rigid therefore useless and you lash out calling him a "pedo guy". I'm sure SpaceX team has people who are not that thin-skinned but he's the CEO. He also insulted the geologist expert who led the Thai side because he politely said couldn't use sub.

      1:38 AM - 16 Jul 2018
      • 1 Retweet
      • 3 Likes
      • Eddie Cejvan Gareth Dennis
      2 replies 1 retweet 3 likes
        1. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 16 Jul 2018
          Replying to @zeynep @peterktodd @GarethDennis

          I can see a sub being useful in some future, other setting. But someone has to lead and test and try and iterate. I wrote as much in my piece. There's no reason it couldn't eventually be useful...

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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        2. Peter Todd‏ @peterktodd 16 Jul 2018
          Replying to @zeynep @GarethDennis

          *One* of the cavers on the ground, in the midst of a developing media shit storm, after being asked to continue. Believe me, I agree that Musk shouldn't have done that, but I do not think media coverage has been helpful here. Even your statement there is misleading.

          1 reply 1 retweet 0 likes
        3. Peter Todd‏ @peterktodd 16 Jul 2018
          Replying to @peterktodd @zeynep @GarethDennis

          Media is not good at nuance unfortunately, and it is good at generating outrage where none was needed (yet often bad at generating outrage where it was needed). I run into this frequently in my day job as well. Very annoying.

          1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
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