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zeynep's profile
zeynep tufekci
zeynep tufekci
zeynep tufekci
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@zeynep

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zeynep tufekciVerified account

@zeynep

Complex systems, wicked problems. Society, technology, science and more. @UNC professor. @NYTimes columnist. My newsletter is @insight: http://www.theinsight.org 

floating in a most peculiar way
theinsight.org
Joined August 2009

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    1. Gareth Dennis‏ @GarethDennis 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @peterktodd

      Gareth Dennis Retweeted zeynep tufekci

      Terrible take. Read this and start again:https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1018456864026132480?s=19 …

      Gareth Dennis added,

      zeynep tufekciVerified account @zeynep
      Heard about @Elonmusk's rescue "submarine"? The cave-diver who masterminded the Thai cave rescue called it a "PR stunt"—that was the politest thing he said. You might be wondering: well, he tried to help. Let me explain with this thread and this NYT piece. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/14/opinion/sunday/elon-musk-thailand-hubris.html … pic.twitter.com/MWicaJKaA6
      Show this thread
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @GarethDennis @peterktodd

      Cave-experts and rescuers of course innovate—but under a very different model of innovation. Almost all rescue situations are hotbeds of innovation and jerry-rigging. Someone was talking about how nurses in ICUs do the same—enormous innovation but embedded within protocols.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    3. Peter Todd‏ @peterktodd 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @zeynep @GarethDennis

      What protocols? I'm sorry, but cave dive rescue is mostly not a thing because so few rescue attempts happen, and even fewer are successful. The two divers who found the kids had never done a successful dive rescue before - all body recoveries (one following a failed rescue).

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Peter Todd‏ @peterktodd 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @peterktodd @zeynep @GarethDennis

      It's also been rarely reported that the hard shelled sub was actually a *second* attempt — SpaceX worked to help another company w/ a few soft, inflatable, stretcher-like rescue pods. The anti-SV argument just desn't work here (an exception IMO; usually I'd criticise SV).

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @peterktodd @GarethDennis

      Cave-diving is a thing. That rescue was a lot of cave-diving—and modern cave-diving is steeped in protocols, and innovation occurs within that context. Also I'm not criticizing developing a backup plan but doing it with a lot of publicity. That is a problem in rescue situations.+

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    6. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @zeynep @peterktodd @GarethDennis

      zeynep tufekci Retweeted zeynep tufekci

      Elon deleted his tweets in response here (he called the caver who convinced the Thai authorities and brought in the divers a "pedo guy" 😬) but here's the issue in a nutshell:https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1018506650087559169 …

      zeynep tufekci added,

      zeynep tufekciVerified account @zeynep
      Replying to @elonmusk
      But my point isn't to criticize you for exploring a back-up option (is it still in development with domain experts?) but that the kind of publicity you seek/bring has downsides whatever your intentions may be, and that, broadly, the incredible rescue has broader lessons for tech.
      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    7. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @zeynep @peterktodd @GarethDennis

      zeynep tufekci Retweeted zeynep tufekci

      Actually check out this thread of mine. (Him deleting his tweets has messed up the order)https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1018498560789286912 …

      zeynep tufekci added,

      zeynep tufekciVerified account @zeynep
      Replying to @elonmusk
      So Vern is the diver who was among the first there, dug up the maps, brought in the other divers, figured out where the boys were and convinced authorities. Look beyond your irritation with his irritation and listen for a sec why he might be irritated, ok? https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/13/uk/thai-cave-rescue-british-divers-intl/index.html …
      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    8. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @zeynep @peterktodd @GarethDennis

      Screenshot format. A high-profile rescue is as much about managing the officials and everyone who was (unworkable) ideas as the rescue. The number of divers who could carry this out were so few that rescuehalted while they slept. Backup option should have been quietly developed.pic.twitter.com/1QZpxcKjXy

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    9. Peter Todd‏ @peterktodd 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @zeynep @GarethDennis

      Indeed, quiet is good. But why was this so noisy? Frankly because of the media whipping up controversy more than anything. Musk's tweets *were* reasonable and took care to not give himself credit. Media presented it very differently and created a shit storm of controversy.

      2 replies 1 retweet 0 likes
    10. Peter Todd‏ @peterktodd 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @peterktodd @zeynep @GarethDennis

      I know people who've done cave rescue (and been victims in cave rescues) and they too complain about media. But that's it, they're complaining about the media itself...

      1 reply 1 retweet 0 likes
      zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 16 Jul 2018
      Replying to @peterktodd @GarethDennis

      Agree about the media part, though social media is media under his control. Also, from what I can tell, the cave-diver community was agnostic to "okay, let's see" to Musk as backup *until* he started tweeting videos & the widespread media coverage. Then they feared the PR affect.

      1:25 AM - 16 Jul 2018
      • 4 Likes
      • Chief Chaos Monkey Gareth Dennis
      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 16 Jul 2018
          Replying to @zeynep @peterktodd @GarethDennis

          The kind of iterative design we see in other safety cultures requires thick skin. Do you ever read incidents sections of scuba or caving boards?😱 NTSB type debriefings etc. Musk's thin skin to criticism isn't just a personality issue: iterative safety requires thick, thick skin.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        3. Peter Todd‏ @peterktodd 16 Jul 2018
          Replying to @zeynep @GarethDennis

          Yes I have; I am a caver. Sorry, but I see both "sub" solutions as sane iterative design based on sound engineering. There's just nothing to criticise there given the constraints. And iterative design *is* something SpaceX has lots or experience with.

          2 replies 1 retweet 0 likes
        4. Show replies
        1. New conversation
        2. Peter Todd‏ @peterktodd 16 Jul 2018
          Replying to @zeynep @GarethDennis

          Which is deeply unfortunate: Musk was quite right in thinking that Twitter could provide a way to brainstorm ideas without impacting the rescue effort itself. And he did the right thing by getting support from those I charge. But then media shit storm created by clickbait...

          1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
        3. zeynep tufekci‏Verified account @zeynep 16 Jul 2018
          Replying to @peterktodd @GarethDennis

          Def agree, media coverage hurt—both the uncritical type (repeating "oh look shiny sub!") and needlessly critical. But it's 2018. You can't put a video of a rigid sub with airtanks on the *side* pushed around in a pool to 22mil for a no-mount rescue without irritating rescuers.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. Show replies

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