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wycats's profile
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz  🥨
Verified account
@wycats

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Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account

@wycats

Tilde Co-Founder, OSS enthusiast and world traveler.

Portland, OR
yehudakatz.com
Joined August 2007

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    1. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Apr 9

      Today I realized (with @littlecalculist) that the web is AWESOME at dealing with low-disk-space situations (or just generally phones with little disk space).

      7 replies 3 retweets 17 likes
      Show this thread
    2. David S Herm-kins‏ @littlecalculist Apr 9
      Replying to @wycats

      To me it feels of a piece with the MP3’s (organize my folders) => iTunes (manage my local collection for me) => Spotify (manage local/remote for me) spectrum. As a platform that generally requires manual curation of local storage, apps feel line a major productivity regression.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
      Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Apr 9
      Replying to @littlecalculist

      On the other hand, for people with a lot of "hard-offline" situations, the ability to "set up" for offline is important, and automatic management works less good for that situation. I think the web needs a "Keep/Install" mode for that situation.

      8:37 AM - 9 Apr 2018
      • 6 Likes
      • Ryan Plans ExtraLife Spoopy.__proto__ 🎃 Luke McDougald Craig Cavalier вкαя∂εℓℓ David S Herm-kins
      4 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Alex Russell‏ @slightlylate Apr 9
          Replying to @wycats @littlecalculist

          That's PWA install +https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/instant-and-offline/web-storage/offline-for-pwa …

          1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
        3. Alex Russell‏ @slightlylate Apr 9
          Replying to @slightlylate @wycats @littlecalculist

          At the limit, eviction still possible, but combined with UI changes, much less likely

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Apr 9
          Replying to @slightlylate @littlecalculist

          I think this is roughly right for "web apps" (user agent specified limits, not many specified guarantees), but I think you still want something more guaranteed via something that looks like app installs. On balance, this situation is still great though, and best in class!

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        5. Alex Russell‏ @slightlylate Apr 9
          Replying to @wycats @littlecalculist

          Persistent Storage is probably what we need to evolve to handle hard cases. I.e., would you trade isolation for real persistence?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Alex Russell‏ @slightlylate Apr 9
          Replying to @slightlylate @wycats @littlecalculist

          E.g., requiring a CSP value that opts the app into its own storage partition at all times in order to gain real persistence at install time

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Apr 9
          Replying to @slightlylate @littlecalculist

          Would this mean you would have to use the same origin for all content (what about fonts?)

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Alex Russell‏ @slightlylate Apr 9
          Replying to @wycats @littlecalculist

          Wouldn't need to be same-origin only, but all cookies, caches, etc. etc. would be effectively double-keyed. E.g.: `Content-Security-Policy: sandbox-storage; ...`

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        9. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Apr 9
          Replying to @slightlylate @littlecalculist

          What would the effect of the double-keying be?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        10. 9 more replies
        1. New conversation
        2. David S Herm-kins‏ @littlecalculist Apr 9
          Replying to @wycats

          The web’s usual solution for protecting against eviction is auto-syncing app logic, which is necessary for collaborative editing anyway (and which is ofc also in the web’s wheelhouse).

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Apr 9
          Replying to @littlecalculist

          I think this is good at a first approximation. Another way to say this is that the web is mostly focused on a "content" abstraction, which treats network (online, offline, flaky) as an orthogonal characteristic to content creation.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Apr 9
          Replying to @wycats @littlecalculist

          Today, we expect browsers to paper over network entirely for us, with some amount of control by content creators. We probably need some control by end users too, but we shouldn't give up the separation of network and content, which makes all of this work to begin with.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        5. David S Herm-kins‏ @littlecalculist Apr 9
          Replying to @wycats

          Basically what this comes down to is sometimes you definitely want to pin content locally, but you want network handled automatically for you often enough that automatic fetching/caching is the right default.

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        6. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth Apr 9
          Replying to @wycats @littlecalculist

          Also browser algorithms (but also app algorithms) are bad at negotiating the sometimes free/sometimes not internet access spectrum.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Apr 9
          Replying to @samth @littlecalculist

          Generally speaking, stronger hints have really helped here. There's potential for abuse, but it's a lot easier to deal with than figuring out which cache headers indicate a real desire by end users. I think direct signals by end users would help too.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth Apr 9
          Replying to @wycats @littlecalculist

          Yeah, knowing which things I'm willing to use cellular data for is not something that's "hintable", I think.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Alex Russell‏ @slightlylate Apr 9
          Replying to @samth @wycats @littlecalculist

          OS APIs don't give us high-fidelity understanding of metering situation. It's crazy complex.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        6. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Iraê‏ @irae Apr 9
          Replying to @wycats @littlecalculist

          "hard-offiline" and minorities. People in the US/EU tend to forget reports about how bad network situations get around the world in terms of availability (cost asside) It would be a major deal for people to have "keep for a week" on a browser that works on cheap phones

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. David S Herm-kins‏ @littlecalculist Apr 9
          Replying to @irae @wycats

          Yeah I realized afterwards I may have sounded like I was saying expensive/intermittent connectivity aren’t major issues. They for sure are, which is why the web has to keep growing its offline capabilities. My point was more that online seems like the better default mode.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. David S Herm-kins‏ @littlecalculist Apr 9
          Replying to @littlecalculist @irae @wycats

          I’ve also longed for better browser-wide offline storage controls for years. I want to be able discrete, large assets (movies, game levels, presentations, etc) offline and then delete them when I’m done. But ofc when network is cheap it’s nicer to experience them streaming.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Iraê‏ @irae Apr 9
          Replying to @littlecalculist @wycats

          The fact that web APIs are very low level is both a strength and a weakness of the medium. At the same time Service Workers are great for solving that, adoption is gated by steep learning curve and somewhat high ongoing cost to keep it

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Iraê‏ @irae Apr 9
          Replying to @irae @littlecalculist @wycats

          And since Service Workers and offline features in general are not on spotlight, wrappers are unlikely to be as ubiquitous as jQuery once were or React is now for UI. But it would be great to see some library drop the “bar to offline implementation” super low

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. End of conversation

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