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wycats's profile
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz  🥨
Verified account
@wycats

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Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account

@wycats

Tilde Co-Founder, OSS enthusiast and world traveler.

Portland, OR
yehudakatz.com
Joined August 2007

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    1. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Mar 25
      Replying to @slightlylate @andreasgal and

      That's the reason I sigh :smile: I remember asking about packaged apps in the first Chrome Dev Summit. You told me they weren't the future, but Chrome would have to circle back around. Chrome leadership and FF leadership, on the other hand, were in love with packaged apps.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    2. andreasgal‏Verified account @andreasgal Mar 25
      Replying to @wycats @slightlylate and

      Packed apps were a hack because app cache was so horrible. It was a quick fix. @fabricedesre hacked it in a day or two. Took years to get the real thing in place. We had to ship so some day we can do the right thing. That day never came

      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Mar 25
      Replying to @andreasgal @slightlylate and

      If you ship a crappier native experience, you'll get canned before you can do the right thing. Because of a desire to ship fast, FFOS didn't have any vision other than "native, but worse". Again, don't want to armchair quarterback, but this vision didn't sell.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    4. Fabrice Desré‏ @fabricedesre Mar 25
      Replying to @wycats @andreasgal and

      You are totally wrong on the reason for the lack of success of FFOS. Rather, look at what makes or break a mobile platform: official support from top apps.

      4 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    5. andreasgal‏Verified account @andreasgal Mar 25
      Replying to @fabricedesre @wycats and

      Yup. And we had to ship/get users to get apps. Hence many shortcuts we didn’t like

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Mar 25
      Replying to @andreasgal @fabricedesre and

      And how'd that go for ya?

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    7. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Mar 25
      Replying to @wycats @andreasgal and

      Less glib: you didn't just need to ship, you needed to ship a new vision for a platform. The shortcuts muddied the waters until nobody could see the vision, and, all else equal, nobody wants more platforms to support.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    8. andreasgal‏Verified account @andreasgal Mar 25
      Replying to @wycats @fabricedesre and

      People don’t build apps for a vision. They build it for users. We tried to get them. Were canceled before we could. @KaiOStech is finishing our run

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Mar 25
      Replying to @andreasgal @fabricedesre and

      People absolutely do build apps for a vision. I'm shocked to hear you say this.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. andreasgal‏Verified account @andreasgal Mar 25
      Replying to @wycats @fabricedesre and

      We tried vision. Didn’t work. People build for reach not to feel good. Hard to blame them

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Mar 25
      Replying to @andreasgal @fabricedesre and

      Vision is not about "feel good". It's about convincing people that you have a reason to exist that justifies the pain of another thing, and convincing them you'll stick around long enough to see it through.

      6:26 PM - 25 Mar 2018
      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Mar 25
          Replying to @wycats @andreasgal and

          In this case, big apps couldn't help but see FFOS as a crappier Windows Phone. Another platform to support with painful restrictions and nothing to justify the extra work. As a developer, I was praying for these platforms to die.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. andreasgal‏Verified account @andreasgal Mar 25
          Replying to @wycats @fabricedesre and

          Well they all did

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Mar 25
          Replying to @andreasgal @fabricedesre and

          Yep. What you needed was fewer devs hoping for failure, and "we worked kind of fast to get a subset of native features working poorly on slow phones" didn't do that. I have no idea if the PWA vision would have fared better, but the pitch wouldn't have given me (a dev) the shakes

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Mar 25
          Replying to @wycats @andreasgal and

          "If you build a <FFPWA>, it'll work on mobile, and of course it'll work on FirefoxOS, because FirefoxOS is just the web. But if you target FFOS, not only will your app work on the web, but it will also have superpowers when running inside of FFOS"

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        6. Fabrice Desré‏ @fabricedesre Mar 25
          Replying to @wycats @andreasgal and

          FFOS started in 2011. PWA were far from being a thing then.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Mar 25
          Replying to @fabricedesre @andreasgal and

          @slightlylate, @annevk and I were pitching them to anyone who would listen *at the time*. I spoke with FFOS folks at the first Chrome Dev Summit. @annevk and I commiserated *at the time*.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Mar 25
          Replying to @wycats @fabricedesre and

          I wrote this in 2013, after running for TAG in 2012 overtly to fix the app cache mess: http://yehudakatz.com/2013/05/21/extend-the-web-forward/ … I wrote the Extensible Web Manifesto in 2013 in part to push back against the widely held belief that packaged apps were the only way forward.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Mar 25
          Replying to @wycats @fabricedesre and

          FFOS engineers were aware of the PWA vision at the time, and just didn't believe it was worth prioritizing. Full stop.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        10. 6 more replies
        1. New conversation
        2. Fabrice Desré‏ @fabricedesre Mar 25
          Replying to @wycats @andreasgal and

          Mozilla is unable to stick around for anything but a desktop browser unfortunately.

          2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        3. andreasgal‏Verified account @andreasgal Mar 25
          Replying to @fabricedesre @wycats and

          They made a strategic decision to go all in on desktop. Well known that it was not what I recommended, but I admire the bold counter-mainstream strategy. If the desktop ever has an unexpected big renaissance Mozilla will be in a great position.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Mar 25
          Replying to @andreasgal @fabricedesre and

          Desktop has a billion users, and while its market share is reducing, its absolute numbers don't seem to be. This is, in part, because working all over the world spend 8 hours a day in front of desktop (and many of them surf the web on the job).

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        5. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Mar 25
          Replying to @wycats @andreasgal and

          Abandoning desktop is silly, just as ignoring mobile is. There's still a great opportunity to differentiate on desktop, but it doesn't matter if the mobile experience sucks or is nonexistent (a great desktop browser needs to sync with a mobile one).

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. andreasgal‏Verified account @andreasgal Mar 25
          Replying to @wycats @fabricedesre and

          “Abandoning horse carriages is silly”. Principally correct but maybe we can agree that desktop is not where the future is headed

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Mar 25
          Replying to @andreasgal @fabricedesre and

          I don't see any evidence that workplace desktops are disappearing, even while I do see a lot of evidence that people are rapidly abandoning desktops for mobile for personal use. In the long term, who knows. Maybe something else will replace workplace desktops ultimately.

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        8. Adam Rackis‏ @AdamRackis Mar 25
          Replying to @wycats @andreasgal and

          How is this controversial?! Of course people will still browse the web from their work computers. The analogy to horse drawn carriages is absurd.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Adam Rackis‏ @AdamRackis Mar 25
          Replying to @AdamRackis @wycats and

          To say nothing of the fact that plenty of web apps will be written primarily for desktop, enabling users to do their jobs from the desktop. Billing reconciliation, payroll, etc. Myopic to imagine people shifting *all* their web usage to the 5" screens they carry in their pocket

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        10. 3 more replies

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