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wycats's profile
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz  🥨
Verified account
@wycats

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Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account

@wycats

Tilde Co-Founder, OSS enthusiast and world traveler.

Portland, OR
yehudakatz.com
Joined August 2007

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    1. Ryan Paul  🍞‏ @segphault Jan 10
      Replying to @markprobst

      Indeed. Unlike the contents of npm, there are presumably groups of people reviewing that code and making sure internet randos aren't putting in whatever they want.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Jan 11
      Replying to @segphault @markprobst

      That would be a false assumption.

      1 reply 0 retweets 15 likes
    3. Tom Dale‏ @tomdale Jan 11
      Replying to @wycats @segphault @markprobst

      It sounds like our 2018 resolution should be "use npm packages that have groups of people who review the code" then, not "only use as many dependencies as you can hand audit." 😁

      3 replies 2 retweets 10 likes
    4. Ryan Paul  🍞‏ @segphault Jan 11
      Replying to @tomdale @wycats @markprobst

      I would love for npm packages to be subject to literally any standard of responsible curation. Saying that I shouldn’t care because V8 also has contributors is not a useful argument.

      4 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. Tom Dale‏ @tomdale Jan 11
      Replying to @segphault @wycats @markprobst

      But npm is just a distribution channel. People know to apply scrutiny before downloading and running them, but we wouldn't tell people to only run binaries they've hand audited and hand compiled.

      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Tom Dale‏ @tomdale Jan 11
      Replying to @tomdale @segphault and

      All I'm saying is there isn't anything special about npm or node packages. I think the way to guard against these concerns is to use well-vetted dependencies, not throw the baby out with the bathwater and say "only use dependencies you hand audit."

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Ryan Paul  🍞‏ @segphault Jan 11
      Replying to @tomdale @wycats @markprobst

      My argument wasn’t to hand audit every release of every package. It was to keep the scope of dependency bloat small enough that you reasonably could. The crazy number of transitive dependencies does make npm different from similar ecosystems

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Tom Dale‏ @tomdale Jan 11
      Replying to @segphault @wycats @markprobst

      Right, but I'd argue that the "small modules philosophy" is problematic because it diffuses trust into a complex web of dependencies, but "can you hand audit?" as a heuristic makes it seem like it's about the size of the code. (I think this is what people are pushing back on.)

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    9. Tom Dale‏ @tomdale Jan 11
      Replying to @tomdale @segphault and

      The V8 codebase is larger than many apps' dependency, but it's a single source of trust. The opaque, diffused web of trust is the issue with small npm packages, not the code size. But the uncomfortable conclusion is that maybe monolithic frameworks weren't so bad after all. 😉

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    10. Ryan Paul  🍞‏ @segphault Jan 11
      Replying to @tomdale @wycats @markprobst

      I completely agree that there are ways to fix the ecosystem so that my approach wouldn’t be necessary. But I don’t think I’m wrong to say that simply avoiding the huge mess of transitive dependencies is a much safer and more responsible way to consume npm as it exists today.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Jan 11
      Replying to @segphault @tomdale @markprobst

      Or maybe rely more on larger, more curated collections of dependencies that are vetted by responsible groups. (as @tomdale is hinting at, we call these collections "frameworks" 😜)

      10:24 AM - 11 Jan 2018
      • 1 Retweet
      • 9 Likes
      • Lorcan Coyle Steve Axthelm Alex Matchneer Jarek Radosz Zach Garwood Jordy👻 Tian Davis [天] Gavin Joyce вкαя∂εℓℓ
      2 replies 1 retweet 9 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Ryan Paul  🍞‏ @segphault Jan 11
          Replying to @wycats @tomdale @markprobst

          Using a framework doesn't help if one of that framework's dependencies brings in a ton of other transitive dependencies that are all moving independently of the framework that nobody responsible for the framework is really vetting.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Jan 11
          Replying to @segphault @tomdale @markprobst

          As a framework author, I can tell you that we vet transitive dependencies more than you might expect.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Ryan Paul  🍞‏ @segphault Jan 11
          Replying to @wycats @tomdale @markprobst

          Well, I feel a lot more comfortable using the ~700 package ember-cli knowing that you're personally reviewing all of those transitive dependencies. ;-)pic.twitter.com/IWz4AL1Y1n

          4 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        5. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Jan 11
          Replying to @segphault @tomdale @markprobst

          Not sure if I should treat this as a troll or keep trying to draw comparisons to other projects you think you trust. Like how many lines of third party code do you think are included in Chrome or Firefox, for example.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        6. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Tom Dale‏ @tomdale Jan 11
          Replying to @wycats @segphault

          I think me and @wycats just feel gaslighted (not by you, but generally) because of how forcefully we were told we were out of touch and spreading FUD when we tried to point these issues out half a decade ago. 😆

          1 reply 1 retweet 12 likes
        3. 1 more reply

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