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wycats's profile
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz  🥨
Verified account
@wycats

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Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account

@wycats

Tilde Co-Founder, OSS enthusiast and world traveler.

Portland, OR
yehudakatz.com
Joined August 2007

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    1. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 1 Dec 2017
      Replying to @bethcodes @wycats

      Languages definitely share the blame though - the language stipulates the amount of information you have to provide, not just for the compiler, but for other people. If everything is optional, so much more discipline is required to write comprehensible code.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Beth‏ @bethcodes 1 Dec 2017
      Replying to @mindplaydk @wycats

      But learning you aren't providing information for other people. If we insisted kindergarteners learned to use the oxford comma before figuring out how to draw "B" no one would ever become literate.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 1 Dec 2017
      Replying to @bethcodes @wycats

      You're arguing elitism again. I'm really coming from a place of empathy - I genuinely believe it's best for most people (not necessarily everyone) to learn things well from the start. Learning bad habits first could make it so much harder to learn good ones.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Beth‏ @bethcodes 1 Dec 2017
      Replying to @mindplaydk @wycats

      Does it, though? What evidence do you have?

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Beth‏ @bethcodes 1 Dec 2017
      Replying to @bethcodes @mindplaydk @wycats

      http://wiki.c2.com/?PotteryChallenge …

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 1 Dec 2017
      Replying to @bethcodes @wycats

      Note how this page qualifies with "maybe" - the same way I qualify with "could" and "may" and "I believe". I'm not trying to establish right or wrong, just sharing my personal experience. If you can't relate, it's because you had a different experience. I respect that 😊

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Beth‏ @bethcodes 1 Dec 2017
      Replying to @mindplaydk @wycats

      No, because this is something I've actually studied my position is based on more than just my own assumptions #science You are making factual assertions and expecting not to be challenged on them despite being wrong; I really don't understand why.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    8. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 1 Dec 2017
      Replying to @bethcodes @wycats

      How do you get from "I believe" and "in my experience" to me making "factual assertions"? You're way out of line. Frankly, your need to provide black and white answers to human issues is harmful to your industry.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 1 Dec 2017
      Replying to @mindplaydk @bethcodes

      Human education is a well-studied field, and your assertions have consistently failed very basic tests of known-to-work pedagogy. Your current rhetorical personal attacks aren't helping you either. Can we slow down and get back to discussing concrete pedagogical questions?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 1 Dec 2017
      Replying to @wycats @bethcodes

      I'm not a teacher, I don't claim to know the right way to teach. I'm debating what to teach, not how to teach it. If that makes me "wrong" according to your interpretations of some paper, then fine, I'll settle for being "wrong".

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 1 Dec 2017
      Replying to @mindplaydk @bethcodes

      Is there any verifiable or falsifiable authority you will accept about effective teaching styles?

      11:50 AM - 1 Dec 2017
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 1 Dec 2017
          Replying to @wycats @bethcodes

          As said, I'm not a teacher. To me, this discussion is about what to teach, not how to teach it.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 1 Dec 2017
          Replying to @mindplaydk @bethcodes

          The model I try to use (that makes the most sense to me) is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_of_proximal_development … It basically says you progressively go from what people can do w/ guidance to helping them do it w/o guidance. Your suggestions front-load too much.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 1 Dec 2017
          Replying to @wycats @mindplaydk @bethcodes

          A related learning model I use is https://terrytao.wordpress.com/career-advice/there%E2%80%99s-more-to-mathematics-than-rigour-and-proofs/ … Which basically describes a fuzzy beginner model, moving to a rigorous intermediate model, moving to enough sophistication to be able to inform the beginner model.

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        5. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 1 Dec 2017
          Replying to @wycats @bethcodes

          I think where we differ is you view languages like Ruby or JS as being simpler because they're apparently easier to get started with - but they are in fact far more complex than the stricter languages, and it takes much, much longer to learn all their hidden details.

          4 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 1 Dec 2017
          Replying to @mindplaydk @bethcodes

          I haven't used the term "simple" or "complex". I am talking about onboarding new developers, and the likely long-term effects on programmer habits (a topic you brought up).

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        7. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 1 Dec 2017
          Replying to @wycats @bethcodes

          I know, my point is I'm not convinced that hiding complexity under more complexity is a really helpful way to get people onboard - I think it would be better to teach the fundamentals of a simpler language rather than skipping them with an easy language.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 1 Dec 2017
          Replying to @mindplaydk @wycats @bethcodes

          Of course, this is based on my own experience, which was that most things didn't make sense to me unless someone offered a real explanation. I've always had a hard time with "you don't need to know that yet", which is why I never grasped chemistry ;-)

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        9. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 1 Dec 2017
          Replying to @mindplaydk @wycats @bethcodes

          I guess maybe I grew up in a different time, when computers were actually simple enough that you could learn every instruction and register etc. - I know that's not feasible for most people anymore, but I don't think languages have changed quite as drastically?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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