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wycats's profile
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz  🥨
Verified account
@wycats

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Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account

@wycats

Tilde Co-Founder, OSS enthusiast and world traveler.

Portland, OR
yehudakatz.com
Joined August 2007

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    1. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 29 Nov 2017

      After playing a little bit with QBasic when I was a kid, I was given a K&R C book. My takeaway: programming is not for me. I didn't look at programming seriously again until I was 23. This article is terrible advice.https://www.zeroequalsfalse.press/2017/11/29/c/ 

      128 replies 194 retweets 995 likes
      Show this thread
    2. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 29 Nov 2017

      Incidentally, a relative who was really interested in programming went to college and her first course was in C++. It was too much too fast and she quit (and never became a programmer). Unless we're actively trying to reduce the number of programmers, don't start with C or C++.

      37 replies 46 retweets 200 likes
      Show this thread
    3. Jarrod‏ @ProblematicProf 29 Nov 2017
      Replying to @wycats

      I've been grappling with this at the undergraduate level (where we do start with C++) for our object oriented course. What do you think are better options? Ruby?

      5 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
    4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 29 Nov 2017
      Replying to @ProblematicProf

      Ruby, JavaScript. But the main thing is start making things that you can share with others right away. Create a blog and start tweaking it in ways *you want*. There's nothing more motivating in programming than seeing an idea you had in your head take form.

      7 replies 12 retweets 126 likes
    5. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 29 Nov 2017
      Replying to @wycats

      I completely agree with you on C - it's a terrible language. But as a first language, Ruby and Javascript are terrible choices as well - you may have more fun, but you will likely learn how to do everything wrong.https://medium.com/@mindplay/the-problem-with-learning-languages-like-javascript-php-ruby-or-python-first-is-you-can-get-away-7accc689d365 …

      3 replies 0 retweets 10 likes
    6. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 29 Nov 2017
      Replying to @mindplaydk

      Can you give an example of something "loose" you can get away with in both Ruby and JavaScript that you can't do in Go that you have to spend years to unlearn?

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    7. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 29 Nov 2017
      Replying to @wycats

      Yes, you can learn how to get away with certain wrong things in Go as well, but it's not the first thing you will learn - in Go is easier to do things right, and you have to go deeper to break the rules - in Ruby, JS, Python etc. it's the other way around.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    8. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 29 Nov 2017
      Replying to @mindplaydk

      I really want you to provide me with an example, not just rhetoric.

      2 replies 0 retweets 11 likes
    9. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 29 Nov 2017
      Replying to @wycats

      I don't think my post is at all rhetorical though. In my experience, devs who don't know any of the stricter languages, even if they create working products, tend to write code that no one else can understand. Programming requires discipline - the loose languages don't teach it.

      4 replies 1 retweet 6 likes
      Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 29 Nov 2017
      Replying to @mindplaydk

      My experience is that trying to bootstrap with a strict language causes people who could be great programmers to bounce off. I wrote Ruby and JS for years before writing way more code in Rust and TS and I have not experienced years of bad habits to unlearn.

      9:51 PM - 29 Nov 2017
      • 1 Retweet
      • 15 Likes
      • brianloveswords Thomas Ochman brian ridley Gravid Beast Radosavljevic Mark Funk Jarrod Larry Kyrala Salym Senyonga
      2 replies 1 retweet 15 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 29 Nov 2017
          Replying to @wycats @mindplaydk

          On the other hand, as I said in my original post, sentiments about what it means to be a "real programmer" pushed me off of the path that eventually led me to working on the Rust programming language. So I just disagree with your empirical claim.

          6 replies 1 retweet 12 likes
        3. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 30 Nov 2017
          Replying to @wycats

          Isn't it possible you just didn't really have the interest or patience when you were younger though? People change. I've changed my opinions on lots of things over the years. Maybe you just weren't ready yet? ;-)

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 30 Nov 2017
          Replying to @mindplaydk

          As an older programmer I plain don't know what "unlearnable bad habits" you're talking about. Did I understand you as saying that writing code in Ruby makes people resistant to code documentation earlier?

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        5. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 30 Nov 2017
          Replying to @wycats

          No, what I'm saying is you will initially learn to count on a person deducing, or a computer to determine at runtime, the state of your program, the pre/post conditions of a function, etc. - which is costly both in computer and human resources, and a habit you must then unlearn.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 30 Nov 2017
          Replying to @mindplaydk

          Whereas in go you are forced to understand the pre and post conditions of a function?

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        7. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 30 Nov 2017
          Replying to @wycats

          Type hints. A type hint is just an assertion about the the state of the program. Things are much simpler if you state your assumptions - "this parameter will be a number" helps both a person and a computer understand an important pre condition for a function dealing with numbers.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 30 Nov 2017
          Replying to @mindplaydk @wycats

          But also (speaking to Ruby and JS specifically) just knowing if an object has a method - rather than looking through every line of code in the system to learn if a method was generated and attached somewhere, at some point. It's not simple for a person, at all.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 1 Dec 2017
          Replying to @mindplaydk

          As opposed to go, where you have to search the program to look for interface definitions that might apply to your object?

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        10. 2 more replies
        1. New conversation
        2. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 29 Nov 2017
          Replying to @wycats

          The much more common scenario, in my experience, is people who learn JS or PHP only, write horrible code for some years, then turn to management. IMO, learning the hard way may knock off a few potentials, but will also clear out a *lot* of ppl who shouldn't be writing code.

          1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
        3. Rasmus Schultz‏ @mindplaydk 29 Nov 2017
          Replying to @mindplaydk @wycats

          And this isn't an elitist point of view - I think we can save a lot of people the grief of learning something they ultimately don't have the discipline or stamina to undertake - and a lot of others from having to fix the broken code they leave behind.

          0 replies 1 retweet 1 like
        4. End of conversation

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