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wycats's profile
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz  🥨
Verified account
@wycats

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Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account

@wycats

Tilde Co-Founder, OSS enthusiast and world traveler.

Portland, OR
yehudakatz.com
Joined August 2007

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    Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 17 Nov 2017

    I'm ready to call it: ES2015 modules are way more useful as an authoring format than as a browser runtime feature. Expect tools that "statically link" modules into one script/module to be best practice for a long time. But it's great that we standardized the authoring format!

    6:07 PM - 17 Nov 2017
    • 92 Retweets
    • 474 Likes
    • Nick Hall Numaan Ashraf Gustav Wengel Ivan Babak CoinStaker Meligy 🅰️ ng-sydney J. McC Andras Matzon Dzianis Sheka
    20 replies 92 retweets 474 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Daniel Brain‏ @bluepnume 17 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats

        Possibly a dangerous thing to add as a runtime feature then, if it's going to encourage bad loading practices?

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 17 Nov 2017
        Replying to @bluepnume

        I think it's not bad for cases that approximate today's script tags, and I think a lot of small sites will use it this way (and benefit, big time). But I don't think we're gonna see sites with thousands of modules running natively any time soon.

        1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
      4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 17 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats @bluepnume

        And I also think that coming to terms with that is good for modules on the web.

        0 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
      5. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Malte Ubl, Immigrant‏Verified account @cramforce 17 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats @jo_liss

        100% agree and been saying this for a while. Making authoring and delivery the same concern isn't even desirable. Much better to optimize them separately.

        1 reply 0 retweets 13 likes
      3. Malte Ubl, Immigrant‏Verified account @cramforce 17 Nov 2017
        Replying to @cramforce @wycats @jo_liss

        What is needed is an interop primitive. E.g. a way for bundled code to expose a module interface.

        4 replies 0 retweets 14 likes
      4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 17 Nov 2017
        Replying to @cramforce @jo_liss

        Ding ding ding. Having this stuff be bound up in proprietary chunk loaders is bad. We need something like the dlopen interface in the C ABI.

        2 replies 0 retweets 13 likes
      5. 1 more reply
      1. New conversation
      2. Rob Palmer‏ @robpalmer2 17 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats

        How important do you think it is for these linker tools to obey the spec? Can observable behaviour differ between the optimized and raw code once loaded by the browser?

        1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
      3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 18 Nov 2017
        Replying to @robpalmer2

        Very very important

        0 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Jacob Rask‏ @jacobrask 18 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats

        Could there be a way forward for a standardised bundling format?

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 18 Nov 2017
        Replying to @jacobrask

        I think that would be premature because static vs dynamic linking is still something userspace needs to sort out. (we need both)

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. K. Adam Christensen‏ @shifteleven 17 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats

        HTTP2 and/or link prefetch is supposed to help the runtime aspect, right?

        2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 17 Nov 2017
        Replying to @shifteleven

        I don't think so.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      4. Spoopy.__proto__  🎃‏ @DotProto 17 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats @shifteleven

        Supposed to, yes, but in practice its still not enough. A Googler (@samccone?) discussed this in some detail at the most recent Chrome Dev Dummit

        1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
      5. Robin Marx‏ @programmingart 18 Nov 2017
        Replying to @DotProto @wycats and

        Still plenty of overhead at browser side for handling many individual requests. In our tests, h2 starts slowing down considerably from 50+ requests onwards.

        1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
      6. Robin Marx‏ @programmingart 18 Nov 2017
        Replying to @programmingart @DotProto and

        Robin Marx Retweeted Yoav Weiss

        Related:https://twitter.com/yoavweiss/status/931799262861647872 …

        Robin Marx added,

        Yoav Weiss @yoavweiss
        Replying to @jaffathecake @cramforce @medikoo
        The problems related to large number of requests can be solved in theory (h2-compression-dictionaries + IPC/IO optimizations). The caching granularity problems related to bundling/packaging are inherent...
        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      7. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Mikaël Gourlaouen‏ @mikael_gour 18 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats

        Disagree. It allows splitting a big app gracefully. Why would you load 400KB JS to all the users if 150 is enough for 90% of them? It can be done without module but it's much heavier and annoying then.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      3. Paul Henschel‏ @0xca0a 18 Nov 2017
        Replying to @mikael_gour @wycats

        It can be done? Code splitting is very simple, it‘s just an Import(...) Statement on the fly. And things like tree shaking or putting common chunks into separate bundles make a huge difference.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. Mikaël Gourlaouen‏ @mikael_gour 18 Nov 2017
        Replying to @0xca0a @wycats

        Sure but all of that is made easier with ES2015 modules. Same for WebAssembly when they will be possible to load through modules on the browser (which I hope will happen soon, anyway it's on the roadmap).

        1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
      5. Paul Henschel‏ @0xca0a 18 Nov 2017
        Replying to @mikael_gour @wycats

        That's what people are saying here, it isn't exactly easier, that's why the community at large is opting out. There are few benefits over bundling and scores of disadvantages atm. I'm sure they'll be flattened out, but we're far from a workable solution right now.

        0 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
      6. End of conversation

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