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wycats's profile
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz  🥨
Verified account
@wycats

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Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account

@wycats

Tilde Co-Founder, OSS enthusiast and world traveler.

Portland, OR
yehudakatz.com
Joined August 2007

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    Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 14 Nov 2017

    Front end software development is: - real-time (instant load, 60fps) - distributed, incremental (synchronize remote data as needed) - asynchronous - reactive (react to user actions in realtime) Front end is the hardest kind of dev I do. The folks who do it every day are heroes.

    7:53 AM - 14 Nov 2017
    • 1,764 Retweets
    • 4,727 Likes
    • Portland Deal Finder The Development Coach Lucas Augusto kasparraitis florin cosmin onciu Daniel Laurent Virginia Kennedy Martins Natureza Morta / Alma Fértil Lucas J S
    88 replies 1,764 retweets 4,727 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Robert Muehsig‏ @robert0muehsig 14 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats

        Sure, everthing else is a piece of cake. 🙄

        3 replies 1 retweet 48 likes
      3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 14 Nov 2017
        Replying to @robert0muehsig

        Hey I worked on Rails 3, help maintain a Rails app, am a member of the Rust core team, manage a Rust agent for @skylight. I'm not saying the other stuff is easy. I'm saying front end is hard in underappreciated ways.

        2 replies 7 retweets 145 likes
      4. Robert Muehsig‏ @robert0muehsig 14 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats @skylight

        Ah - this is much better, otherwise I would strongly disagree, because each "layer" has its challenges, but Frontend might - at least for non UI/UX folks - not seen as important as other disciplines.

        1 reply 0 retweets 10 likes
      5. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 14 Nov 2017
        Replying to @robert0muehsig @skylight

        Yehuda Katz  🥨 Retweeted Yehuda Katz  🥨

        I followed up here:https://twitter.com/wycats/status/928717799547006976 …

        Yehuda Katz  🥨 added,

        Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account @wycats
        Replying to @wycats @mattyglesias
        It's nice that this has changed more recently. Also, "This obscure senate rule could cause problems for repeal" was hilariously understated. "Experts say repeal likely won't satisfy Senate rules" or something is much better.
        1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
      6. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 14 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats @robert0muehsig @skylight

        Yehuda Katz  🥨 Retweeted Yehuda Katz  🥨

        WHOOPS! I actually followed up here:https://twitter.com/wycats/status/930489573850857472 …

        Yehuda Katz  🥨 added,

        Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account @wycats
        https://twitter.com/wycats/status/930463710941872128 … For reference, I'm not saying backend work is easy. I'm saying that stateless services or apps with freedom to use dependencies without worrying about size is not quite as incredibly difficult.
        0 replies 1 retweet 10 likes
      7. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Corey Tabaka‏ @coreytabaka 15 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats

        Agree that front end is underappreciated and difficult. It's not fair to call most front end real-time. Unless your primary problem space is preemption, priority, and deadline it's not really real-time. Responsive or consistent would be more appropriate IMO.

        1 reply 1 retweet 3 likes
      3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 15 Nov 2017
        Replying to @coreytabaka

        Real time in this sense means: - very sharp deadlines for downloading and running (compared to native apps which can get away with asking you to download many megabytes) - taking actions in the browser can't take long enough to block the main thread or scrolling fails.

        2 replies 1 retweet 5 likes
      4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 15 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats @coreytabaka

        I sometimes use "soft realtime" in this formulation, which I think is completely accurate. "A system is said to be real-time if the total correctness of an operation depends not only upon its logical correctness, but also upon the time in which it is performed."pic.twitter.com/G2aCYvkBVj

        0 replies 2 retweets 4 likes
      5. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. C. Spencer Beggs‏ @spencerbeggs 14 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats

        Aw, thanks. That means a lot coming from you. Frontend engineers sometimes have chips on our shoulders because we face the constant attitude that what we are doing isn't Real Programming™.

        3 replies 7 retweets 27 likes
      3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 14 Nov 2017
        Replying to @spencerbeggs

        I know the feeling. I work on a lot of backend stuff (including rust) and find that people underappreciate front end.

        1 reply 1 retweet 9 likes
      4. Daniel Schildt‏ @autiomaa 15 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats @spencerbeggs

        The largest irony is that many of the "full stack" developers only work with 1-2 programming languages on the back-end.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      5. C. Spencer Beggs‏ @spencerbeggs 15 Nov 2017
        Replying to @autiomaa @wycats

        I always thought full-stack meant you did frontend and a bit of dev ops, too. Either that or it’s a nearly meaningless we use in place of “I know lots of stuff about computers.”

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      6. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 15 Nov 2017
        Replying to @spencerbeggs @autiomaa

        I think it usually means "I do everything needed to ship an app end to end" which means backend, front-end and enough devops (but could mean experience with a particular PaaS). It's pretty hard too ;)

        1 reply 1 retweet 3 likes
      7. C. Spencer Beggs‏ @spencerbeggs 15 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats @autiomaa

        It can also mean: I am calling myself this because that's what your job description asked for and I am interested in working for your company.

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      8. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Eduard Urbach  💻‏ @eduardurbach 14 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats

        As someone who does both on equal ratio, I can say backend is harder and consumes more time. Backend asynchronous message communication over TCP where every async state & dc needs to be handled correctly, ugh. Frontend is fun though. 60 fps is also much easier nowadays.

        1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
      3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 14 Nov 2017
        Replying to @eduardurbach

        Do you do backend on the bare metal? Stateless backends (the dominant kind) are simpler than almost any front end web app. And front ends have to work harder to keep deps and size small.

        3 replies 2 retweets 17 likes
      4. Eduard Urbach  💻‏ @eduardurbach 15 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats

        Frontend taking a lot of deps is the developer's own fault, not the fault of frontend development per se. I write my frontends with 0 deps and it's working perfectly for me. People use too many 3rd party libs slowing everything down.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      5. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 15 Nov 2017
        Replying to @eduardurbach

        Keeping the number of deps small is what I'm saying makes it harder (you can more freely use deps on the backend)

        1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
      6. 1 more reply
      1. New conversation
      2. (identity [:pankaj :λ])‏ @pankajdoharey 14 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats

        What makes it even harder is the nature of underlying tech, no one has been able to make a perfect JS framework yet, JS<->DOM somehow seem incompatible. The closest anyone really came to solving the issue is by going diametrically opposite like React or Elm.

        4 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
      3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 14 Nov 2017
        Replying to @pankajdoharey

        I don't think this is quite right but it's more parochial than the point I was trying to make :) I don't think "programming model mismatches" are quite as problematic as the "mutable state is evil" crowd would have you believe.

        1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
      4. (identity [:pankaj :λ])‏ @pankajdoharey 14 Nov 2017
        Replying to @wycats

        Ohh wow! I was only trying to say that separation of concerns always seemed like the right solution for frameworks seemed to fail in DOM<->JS, though i dont think "Mutable State is Absolute Evil", but for some strange reason the solutions in those langs seem more elegant.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 14 Nov 2017
        Replying to @pankajdoharey

        Yeah I got you.

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      6. End of conversation

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