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wycats's profile
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz  🥨
Verified account
@wycats

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Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account

@wycats

Tilde Co-Founder, OSS enthusiast and world traveler.

Portland, OR
yehudakatz.com
Joined August 2007

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    1. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 23 Nov 2016
      Replying to @wycats

      you need to admit that things aren't going so well and commit to substantive changes to change the game at this point. 2/

      1 reply 1 retweet 7 likes
    2. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 23 Nov 2016
      Replying to @wycats

      Ruby 1.9.0 came out around the same time as Py3. Ruby 1.9.2 around the same time as Py3.2. They're analogous. Rails 3 shipped at the 3/

      3 replies 2 retweets 5 likes
    3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 23 Nov 2016
      Replying to @wycats

      same time as Ruby 1.9.2 (same week) and already had full support for Ruby 1.9.2. For reference, Ruby, like Python, made a major String 4/

      1 reply 2 retweets 3 likes
    4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 23 Nov 2016
      Replying to @wycats

      change in Ruby 1.9, which moved Strings from "bags of bytes" to codepoints with tagged encoding, which means good UTF-8 support 5/

      1 reply 1 retweet 4 likes
    5. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 23 Nov 2016
      Replying to @wycats

      the difference is that Ruby did a lot to keep the new String compatible with old String (BINARY encoding and compat hax for just-ASCII 6/

      1 reply 1 retweet 2 likes
    6. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 23 Nov 2016
      Replying to @wycats

      Strings), which meant a decent amount of encoding weirdness for a little bit, but, in the long-term, a smooth-enough transition. 7/

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 23 Nov 2016
      Replying to @wycats

      The summary of the difference is this: In Ruby, it was possible to write a full shim library that worked in both 1.8 and 1.9 for 8/

      2 replies 1 retweet 1 like
    8. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 23 Nov 2016
      Replying to @wycats

      everything that we needed in Rails (I wrote a large amount of it and did a lot of the encoding work in Rails 3). In contrast, Py3.0 9/

      1 reply 1 retweet 2 likes
    9. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 23 Nov 2016
      Replying to @wycats

      shipped syntactic changes that were mutually exclusive with Py2.x. This made it impossible for Django to use the shim approach we 10/

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    10. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 23 Nov 2016
      Replying to @wycats

      used in Rails, and which got us on the "latest Ruby" train literally as early as was plausible. If you want to disagree with this 11/

      1 reply 2 retweets 4 likes
      Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 23 Nov 2016

      analysis, you need to find an explanation for the wide difference in OUTCOMES between Py3 and Ruby1.9. Again, encodings ain't it. 12/12

      8:27 PM - 23 Nov 2016
      • 7 Likes
      • scott lewis Dan Mayer Christian Holm Klint melting away Stefan Daschek Bret Little Dan Levy
      8 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Micah Wylde‏ @mwylde 23 Nov 2016
          Replying to @wycats

          1.9 also shipped with *huge* perf improvements over 1.8, which provided a strong incentive to upgrade. It was still kind of painful.

          2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 23 Nov 2016
          Replying to @mwylde

          it was painful but reducing the pain was an intentional and concerted effort (I was part of it), including reverting some 1/

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 23 Nov 2016
          Replying to @wycats @mwylde

          "necessary" breaking changes once they caused too much upgrade problems. 2/2

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Micah Wylde‏ @mwylde 23 Nov 2016
          Replying to @wycats

          That definitely helped. But the carrot-and-stick approach of tying in YARV convinced a lot of people to do the work.

          3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 23 Nov 2016
          Replying to @mwylde

          right, and Py3k choosing to be slower at first definitely didn't help.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        7. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. James Kiesel‏ @gdpelican 23 Nov 2016
          Replying to @wycats

          Do you think @angularjs will face similar challenges with their big leap to 2.0?

          3 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 23 Nov 2016
          Replying to @gdpelican @angularjs

          yes

          0 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
        4. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth 24 Nov 2016
          Replying to @wycats

          No one has any good theories of programming language adoption, so it seems unfair to demand it of Python developers.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 24 Nov 2016
          Replying to @samth

          I'm surprised to hear you say this.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Stan Chang Khin Boon‏ @lxcid 23 Nov 2016
          Replying to @wycats

          no idea why the need for comparison. For what it's worth, majority of the library are py2&3 compatible, with many dropping py2 alr.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats 23 Nov 2016
          Replying to @lxcid

          the comparison illustrates that many of the explanations for the py3 timeframe don't hold up.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. Stan Chang Khin Boon‏ @lxcid 24 Nov 2016
          Replying to @wycats

          i think py3 adoption was an issue for the longest time no doubt, but the doom and gloom scenario is far from true IMO.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Kevin Lacker‏ @lacker 24 Nov 2016
          Replying to @wycats

          I agree with your analysis. what would you recommend py3 folks do at this point?

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Dorian‏ @bydorian 24 Nov 2016
          Replying to @lacker @wycats

          @gvanrossum @raymondh Make py4 compatible with py2 and 3, mark py2's stuff as deprecated, minors…, remove deprecated in py5✨

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Dorian‏ @bydorian 24 Nov 2016
          Replying to @bydorian @lacker

          @wycat cc: @adrianholovaty @jessicamckellar @t3kcit @brutasse @cfbolz @dabeaz @ianbicking

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. End of conversation
        1. Christopher Parker‏ @cparker15 24 Nov 2016
          Replying to @wycats

          Haven't followed py news in a while. Isn't there a decent 2-to-3 transpiler yet?

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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        1. Ryan Plans ExtraLife‏ @RyanTablada 24 Nov 2016
          Replying to @wycats

          do you see any similarities in needing to support many module/build systems in JS?

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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        1. Stan Chang Khin Boon‏ @lxcid 23 Nov 2016
          Replying to @wycats

          I use exclusive Python 3 now. No need to drop to 2.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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