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wycats's profile
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz  🥨
Verified account
@wycats

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Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account

@wycats

Tilde Co-Founder, OSS enthusiast and world traveler.

Portland, OR
yehudakatz.com
Joined August 2007

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    1. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12

      Perhaps surprising: I agree with @slightlylate that the discussion we're having about web performance isn't helping us move forward as a community.

      2 replies 5 retweets 35 likes
      Show this thread
    2. Tegan‏ @sincerely_tegan Sep 12
      Replying to @wycats @slightlylate

      Do you agree that it's React's fault that because a site that happens to use React is unoptimized that it's React's fault though? It seems like he's just looking for excuses to yell at frameworks at this point.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12
      Replying to @sincerely_tegan @slightlylate

      I think that the developer community could really, badly use a discussion about which techniques work better, and I also believe that the discussion around React isn't helping us have that discussion.

      1 reply 0 retweets 10 likes
    4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12
      Replying to @wycats @sincerely_tegan @slightlylate

      Some people want to "blame React", while React people want to "defend React". But those two narratives overwhelm a discussion about which techniques, when used together with any framework, get the best results.

      2 replies 0 retweets 20 likes
    5. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12
      Replying to @wycats @sincerely_tegan @slightlylate

      So it's not "React's fault", but at the same time being defensive on behalf of your framework of choice (I include myself with regard to Ember) is contributing to the poor quality of the community conversation.

      1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
    6. Tegan‏ @sincerely_tegan Sep 12
      Replying to @wycats @slightlylate

      I use React sure, but I don't feel particularly defensive about criticisms of it when they actually make sense. But blaming a 400KB bundle on the fact that the user used React is a bit absurd to me and makes it really hard to take anything Alex says seriously on that front.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
      Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12
      Replying to @sincerely_tegan @slightlylate

      I think that it's wrong to blame React, because that isn't the conversation. It's not wrong to observe that people assume that React is "fast enough" and that there's too little discussion about techniques that should come default across the board.

      4:37 PM - 12 Sep 2018
      • 7 Likes
      • ‏Chris Adams‎ Spoopy.__proto__ 🎃 Michael Hood Parashuram Parker Bond Alex Russell Tegan
      1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Alex Russell‏ @slightlylate Sep 12
          Replying to @wycats @sincerely_tegan

          Also, I don't "blame" React. Instead I note the probability (approaching 1) that sites with 400K of 1P JS include a relatively heavy framework, too many polyfills, and many other unneeded elements. Heavy FW use is a symptom of broken culture and management priorities.

          2 replies 0 retweets 10 likes
        3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12
          Replying to @slightlylate @sincerely_tegan

          Do you agree that tooling could eliminate or defer enough unused code (in combination with better patterns and programming models) so that the size of the "raw" framework matters less than how many features of the framework you're leaning on?

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Alex Russell‏ @slightlylate Sep 12
          Replying to @wycats @sincerely_tegan

          I think tooling -- coupled to good choices in view, routing, and data layers -- is *already* getting real apps to a much better place. Teams need structure. It's why I recommend Polymer Starter Kit and Ionic PWA Starter Kit and Preact CLI and Next.js -- never "raw" view layers

          2 replies 0 retweets 11 likes
        5. Tom Dale‏ @tomdale Sep 12
          Replying to @slightlylate @wycats @sincerely_tegan

          I’d strike Polymer from that list given the lack of an SSR story. Fatal to good FMP.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. Alex Russell‏ @slightlylate Sep 12
          Replying to @tomdale @wycats @sincerely_tegan

          That's an...interesting...claim. I see lots of SSR solutions that don't early flush, delay TTFB by a huge amount, double-or-triple-up overall data sent, etc. It's very much a footrace, but if you're lighter you don't need as much force.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        7. Tom Dale‏ @tomdale Sep 12
          Replying to @slightlylate @wycats @sincerely_tegan

          Just because you can get SSR wrong doesn’t mean you should bet on a technology that won’t ever let you get it right. H2 and SW have similar footguns; I wouldn’t use a framework that prevented me from using them.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        8. Alex Russell‏ @slightlylate Sep 12
          Replying to @tomdale @wycats @sincerely_tegan

          Show me the traces. It's easy: https://www.webpagetest.org/easy  Paste in the URL of a good example, select "Mobile - Regular 3G", hit submit, share WPT result!

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Tom Dale‏ @tomdale Sep 13
          Replying to @slightlylate @wycats @sincerely_tegan

          What evidence would be persuasive to you? Any SSR app being faster than any Polymer app at FMP? Seems like there will be confounding factors.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        10. 30 more replies

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