Perhaps surprising: I agree with @slightlylate that the discussion we're having about web performance isn't helping us move forward as a community.
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So it's not "React's fault", but at the same time being defensive on behalf of your framework of choice (I include myself with regard to Ember) is contributing to the poor quality of the community conversation.
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I use React sure, but I don't feel particularly defensive about criticisms of it when they actually make sense. But blaming a 400KB bundle on the fact that the user used React is a bit absurd to me and makes it really hard to take anything Alex says seriously on that front.
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I think that it's wrong to blame React, because that isn't the conversation. It's not wrong to observe that people assume that React is "fast enough" and that there's too little discussion about techniques that should come default across the board.
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Also, I don't "blame" React. Instead I note the probability (approaching 1) that sites with 400K of 1P JS include a relatively heavy framework, too many polyfills, and many other unneeded elements. Heavy FW use is a symptom of broken culture and management priorities.
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Do you agree that tooling could eliminate or defer enough unused code (in combination with better patterns and programming models) so that the size of the "raw" framework matters less than how many features of the framework you're leaning on?
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I think tooling -- coupled to good choices in view, routing, and data layers -- is *already* getting real apps to a much better place. Teams need structure. It's why I recommend Polymer Starter Kit and Ionic PWA Starter Kit and Preact CLI and Next.js -- never "raw" view layers
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I’d strike Polymer from that list given the lack of an SSR story. Fatal to good FMP.
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That's an...interesting...claim. I see lots of SSR solutions that don't early flush, delay TTFB by a huge amount, double-or-triple-up overall data sent, etc. It's very much a footrace, but if you're lighter you don't need as much force.
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I keep trying to drag the conversation away from "raw" frameworks and towards fuller stacks. Have gotten frustrated by how often people think I'm "blaming" the framework itself.
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I sat in a wiz course today - it opened my eyes to some pretty interesting ideas. How you’d bring that stack or something like it to FOSS... no idea.
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It’s easy: $ cd /google3/wiz $ g4 pushtogithub -f
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I think you mean cd /google3/com/java/I/already/forgot/what/the/joke/was/wiz
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You say potato, I say potato
End of conversation
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