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wycats's profile
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz  🥨
Verified account
@wycats

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Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account

@wycats

Tilde Co-Founder, OSS enthusiast and world traveler.

Portland, OR
yehudakatz.com
Joined August 2007

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    1. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12

      We're over-focused on benchmarking "hello world" minimal thresholds, with very little focus on what we can do as a larger community to systemically reduce the cost of abstractions?

      2 replies 3 retweets 14 likes
      Show this thread
    2. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12

      Which practices in frameworks combined with which tools reduce (or eliminate) the cost of unused code? Which tools could we be building? Which asynchronous programming models help to delay the cost of code to the point where it's being used?

      1 reply 2 retweets 9 likes
      Show this thread
    3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12

      What different kinds of users are there and what size/CPU budgets do those users have?

      1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
      Show this thread
    4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12

      As @slightlylate said: "This will mean that many popular tools are relegated to prototyping. That’s OK." Rather than "disqualifying" frameworks for all uses, could figure out what use-cases a particular environment is useful for?

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
      Show this thread
    5. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12

      Can we, as framework authors, do a better job of communicating which personas are appropriate for our frameworks, using quantitative measures that the community agrees on broadly?

      2 replies 1 retweet 12 likes
      Show this thread
    6. Rick Byers‏ @RickByers Sep 12
      Replying to @wycats

      What would you think about the idea of augmenting the data in real-world perf datasets like the Chrome user experience report to show how key perf metrics correlate with the presence of common libraries in different environments (2g Android India, WiFi macbook USA, etc.)?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12
      Replying to @RickByers

      I would be opposed to any analysis that will be primarily used to stack-rank popular frameworks in global terms, and I believe that this kind of analysis is what's causing the current crisis that @slightlylate is referring to.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12
      Replying to @wycats @RickByers @slightlylate

      The question is rather: how do different TECHNIQUES correlate in different environments: SSR, async code fetching, tree shaking. There's a legitimate open question about whether SSR produces better outcomes in emerging markets at different size ratios.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12
      Replying to @wycats @RickByers @slightlylate

      These analyses can be used as the input to smart bundling tools, but only once we start focusing on techniques rather than the number of bytes in libraries.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Rick Byers‏ @RickByers Sep 12
      Replying to @wycats @slightlylate

      Sounds potentially useful to me. Is there anything browser engineering teams like mine can provide to help enable framework technique experts (certainly not me) to more easily do and leverage such an analysis?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12
      Replying to @RickByers @slightlylate

      Telemetry can help answer the impact of deferred loading, deferred eval, successful use of lazy parsing in different environments.

      4:04 PM - 12 Sep 2018
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12
          Replying to @wycats @RickByers @slightlylate

          Deferred loading means waiting until the user interacts to fetch and evaluate code, showing a spinner at that point. Deferred eval means fetching code up front as inert content and evaluating it on demand. Lazy parsing means eval up-front but hitting lazy-parse heuristics

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12
          Replying to @wycats @RickByers @slightlylate

          TTI matters a lot, but so does how long users have to wait for spinners, how much "deferral" techniques trigger lazy jank.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12
          Replying to @wycats @RickByers @slightlylate

          Also, how much does "background fetching" affect these heuristics, where background fetch means optimize for TTI but download and eval the payload in the background (again, with the matrix of deferral options)

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12
          Replying to @wycats @RickByers @slightlylate

          These techniques have different tradeoffs depending on how expensive network is vs. CPU. And sometimes expensive means literal money.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 12
          Replying to @wycats @RickByers @slightlylate

          These are all the questions I could use data on more than "how many bytes is a React hello world" as we work on the next iteration of Ember tooling.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Rick Byers‏ @RickByers Sep 15
          Replying to @wycats @slightlylate

          Yep, definitely some good things to study here. Some are thinks we're starting to track and expose more seriously in the browser - like overall input latency metrics. Also we're studying the effect of lazy loading iframes and images, so that's a related piece...

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Rick Byers‏ @RickByers Sep 15
          Replying to @RickByers @wycats @slightlylate

          But it sounds like a lot of what you're talking about is experimenting with frameworks and measuring at that level. Eg. I don't think we can automatically detect spinners in a generic way. Maybe a need for some co-ordination APIs though?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Rick Byers‏ @RickByers Sep 15
          Replying to @RickByers @wycats @slightlylate

          I'm hoping that in addition to First Input Delay, we'll get Worst Input Delay into the CrUX report. That should help capture some of what you're talking about. But custom telemetry from framework code seems strictly superior to me...

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
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