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wycats's profile
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz  🥨
Verified account
@wycats

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Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account

@wycats

Tilde Co-Founder, OSS enthusiast and world traveler.

Portland, OR
yehudakatz.com
Joined August 2007

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    1. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub Sep 2

      Graydon Hoare Retweeted ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      I won’t @ them but limiting expressivity in order to limit cognitive load and keep codebases approachable is a totally legitimate move in language design. I’d even say essential. It’s all about balance, and expressivity _does_ have tradeoffs.https://twitter.com/SeanTAllen/status/1036236006872305665 …

      Graydon Hoare added,

      ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ @SeanTAllen
      Almost all the arguments I see against generics in go are pretty awful. "People might create abstractions I can't understand" is an awful argument. And that's the root of most argument I see. That's so broad that you can apply it to the base language itself. Don't @ me.
      Show this thread
      10 replies 29 retweets 128 likes
    2. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 3
      Replying to @graydon_pub

      In the case of generics, the cost of leaving out even simple generics has a high cognitive load cost. I have no problem with taking it slow and conservative; that's a reasonable place for them. But the koans and zealous arguments against generics disrupt the design process.

      2 replies 1 retweet 10 likes
    3. Brendan Zabarauskas‏ @brendanzab Sep 3
      Replying to @wycats @graydon_pub

      I keep seeing references to 'koans', but never come across these wrt. generics. Do you have any examples?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 3
      Replying to @brendanzab @graydon_pub

      Yehuda Katz  🥨 Retweeted Dave Cheney

      These kinds of things https://twitter.com/davecheney/status/539576755254611968?s=19 … Also: - "less is exponentially more" - "simplicity cannot be added later" And others.

      Yehuda Katz  🥨 added,

      Dave Cheney @davecheney
      Most programming languages start out aiming to be simple, but end up just settling for being powerful.
      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    5. William D. Jones‏ @cr1901 Sep 6
      Replying to @wycats @brendanzab @graydon_pub

      Too add a sample point to your koans: I can only go with my gut, but my if I were designing my own language, I would not add generics. Not worth the impl burden. Simplicity of implementation for the designer and satisfying the most people are mutually exclusive.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. William D. Jones‏ @cr1901 Sep 6
      Replying to @cr1901 @wycats and

      And I would have rather have something I could fully understand (or close to it) so I can change it easily rather than something where no single person can understand the whole, but satisfies conflicting use cases so ppl can "get things done". Not understand the layers BOTHERS me

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Brendan Zabarauskas‏ @brendanzab Sep 6
      Replying to @cr1901 @wycats @graydon_pub

      Agreed, about liking understanding the whole thing. But it is possible to do this with parametric polymorphism! I’ve been finding bidirectional type checking to be a great way to keep complexity under control, for dependent types at least!

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. William D. Jones‏ @cr1901 Sep 6
      Replying to @brendanzab @wycats @graydon_pub

      It is very possible I'm just not used to it. Graydon has given me very helpful resources in the past and I've slowly been looking into them. But I have to do work for stuff I'm good at/that ppl pay me for (FPGAs) before I can reserve time for things I'm less comfortable with :(.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    9. William D. Jones‏ @cr1901 Sep 6
      Replying to @cr1901 @brendanzab and

      Maybe it's more accurate to say: "At present, if I had to implement a high-level lang*, I would skip generics b/c it's still not something I think I'd personally find worth the extra impl details." I totally get why users love them tho.

      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 7
      Replying to @cr1901 @brendanzab @graydon_pub

      Would you have any type system?

      8:31 AM - 7 Sep 2018
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. William D. Jones‏ @cr1901 Sep 7
          Replying to @wycats

          Short answer: Yes. Long answer: At present I'm not qualified to write my own programming language, and I would need to spend time studying type systems. My ideal language is probably something like "C with linear types and self-referential data structs".

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. William D. Jones‏ @cr1901 Sep 7
          Replying to @cr1901 @wycats

          A short-term goal of mine is also to write an ML, just to see how to/if I can do it :P. From what I've been told, ML-style generics _aren't_ that bad to implement, compared to, say, C++.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation

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