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wycats's profile
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz  🥨
Verified account
@wycats

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Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account

@wycats

Tilde Co-Founder, OSS enthusiast and world traveler.

Portland, OR
yehudakatz.com
Joined August 2007

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    1. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub Sep 2

      Graydon Hoare Retweeted ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      I won’t @ them but limiting expressivity in order to limit cognitive load and keep codebases approachable is a totally legitimate move in language design. I’d even say essential. It’s all about balance, and expressivity _does_ have tradeoffs.https://twitter.com/SeanTAllen/status/1036236006872305665 …

      Graydon Hoare added,

      ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ @SeanTAllen
      Almost all the arguments I see against generics in go are pretty awful. "People might create abstractions I can't understand" is an awful argument. And that's the root of most argument I see. That's so broad that you can apply it to the base language itself. Don't @ me.
      Show this thread
      10 replies 29 retweets 128 likes
    2. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 3
      Replying to @graydon_pub

      In the case of generics, the cost of leaving out even simple generics has a high cognitive load cost. I have no problem with taking it slow and conservative; that's a reasonable place for them. But the koans and zealous arguments against generics disrupt the design process.

      2 replies 1 retweet 10 likes
    3. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub Sep 3
      Replying to @wycats

      I can't say I agree. The cognitive load of any static typing discipline is in mentally modelling the dynamic (unspecified-by-typing) residue; the residue-model gets simpler the fancier the types get, but nonlinearly. Balance is load of residue vs. load of the types themselves.

      2 replies 0 retweets 17 likes
    4. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub Sep 3
      Replying to @graydon_pub @wycats

      To me, the nonlinearity is the key here. Residue is already off the cliff of undecidability, so meaningful chunks are quite hard to take out of it. Whereas simpler type systems impose dramatically-less load than more-complex ones (which themselves often fall off same cliff).

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub Sep 3
      Replying to @graydon_pub @wycats

      Many users have experienced "my program is simple, but type system is so complex that I can't for the life of me get it to typecheck" which is .. a thing you want to reserve for only the gravest / most-pervasive problems if you want anyone to have the patience to use the thing.

      2 replies 1 retweet 11 likes
    6. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth Sep 3
      Replying to @graydon_pub @wycats

      My experience is that mostly people who want their simple program to type check are asking for either significantly greater type system complexity or to be able to ignore some aspect of the underlying language (such as concurrency or mutability).

      2 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
    7. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub Sep 3
      Replying to @samth @wycats

      IME it's more often subtle misreadings in the user's model of the type system, such as mistaking type envs / bindings for values, mistaking static bounds for existentials, wrong model of unification, variance, implicits, interaction with subtyping, etc.

      3 replies 1 retweet 11 likes
    8. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub Sep 3
      Replying to @graydon_pub @samth @wycats

      I.e. the user doesn't want an unsafe or wrong program as such, they just have typed what they want in a way that doesn't quite fit with the way the type system wants to describe or deduce it, and they can't find the place where it differs.

      2 replies 3 retweets 22 likes
    9. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 3
      Replying to @graydon_pub @samth

      I totally agree with this diagnosis! But I think it implies we should look harder at the standard ways we express typed programs to see why there problems come up over and over, and try to tweak the trade-offs.

      1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
    10. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub Sep 3
      Replying to @wycats @samth

      Agreed. This is where I point to generics as "a standard way we express typed programs" and express some ambivalence. Perhaps a bit like my ambivalence over (say) lambdas. They work, but it seems they introduce a lot of room for mismatched meanings.

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
      Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 3
      Replying to @graydon_pub @samth

      The existence of uninstantiated type parameters is kind of there under the surface no matter what you do, but I completely agree that the syntax of generics that most languages use is a weak local maximum.

      4:18 PM - 3 Sep 2018
      • 5 Likes
      • 1000 years of COBOL Brandon Bloom Brett Evans Nino Floris Alexander “bad code no docs” Payne
      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 7
          Replying to @wycats @graydon_pub @samth

          I can say what I was trying to say a little more strongly: I strongly agree that today's generic system sucks both in terms of noise burden AND in terms of how closely it matches programmer intuition about parameterized types and functions.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Nasal Demon‏ @ubsanitizer Sep 7
          Replying to @wycats @graydon_pub @samth

          I think you could probably argue the same for functions - before someone gets an intuition for what [type] functions are, [type] functions are confusing. They don't actually seem that hard, especially if you remove all the complicated (implicit or explicit) interface stuff

          3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 7
          Replying to @ubsanitizer @graydon_pub @samth

          I don't think so, at least for me. I know both concepts extremely well (to the point of having written both frameworks using the concepts and implementations of the concepts), and type parameters feel much harder to me.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 7
          Replying to @wycats @ubsanitizer and

          Part of that is because when types feel "easy", it's possible to mentally elide them and focus on normal function execution. But type parameters require you to first run a "type interpreter" in your head to understand what you're looking at.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 7
          Replying to @wycats @ubsanitizer and

          I think this is the explanation for why people have an intuition that parameters are existentials: it's much easier to avoid the "type interpreter" step when you think about them that way.

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        7. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth Sep 7
          Replying to @wycats @ubsanitizer @graydon_pub

          I think I (maybe like @ubsanitizer) don't understand the mental model you're describing. I think about (and teach) type parameterization as a precise analogue of function parameterization. You have two similar things (functions, type defs), and you abstract by adding a parameter.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        8. Nasal Demon‏ @ubsanitizer Sep 7
          Replying to @samth @wycats @graydon_pub

          Right, that's my mental model of type parameters. I know functions are really hard to "get" before you have the intuition; I imagine type parameters are the same way.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Nasal Demon‏ @ubsanitizer Sep 7
          Replying to @ubsanitizer @samth and

          (but once you have that intuition, then you're fine)

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        10. 5 more replies

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