Skip to content
By using Twitter’s services you agree to our Cookies Use. We and our partners operate globally and use cookies, including for analytics, personalisation, and ads.
  • Home Home Home, current page.
  • About

Saved searches

  • Remove
  • In this conversation
    Verified accountProtected Tweets @
Suggested users
  • Verified accountProtected Tweets @
  • Verified accountProtected Tweets @
  • Language: English
    • Bahasa Indonesia
    • Bahasa Melayu
    • Català
    • Čeština
    • Dansk
    • Deutsch
    • English UK
    • Español
    • Filipino
    • Français
    • Hrvatski
    • Italiano
    • Magyar
    • Nederlands
    • Norsk
    • Polski
    • Português
    • Română
    • Slovenčina
    • Suomi
    • Svenska
    • Tiếng Việt
    • Türkçe
    • Ελληνικά
    • Български език
    • Русский
    • Српски
    • Українська мова
    • עִבְרִית
    • العربية
    • فارسی
    • मराठी
    • हिन्दी
    • বাংলা
    • ગુજરાતી
    • தமிழ்
    • ಕನ್ನಡ
    • ภาษาไทย
    • 한국어
    • 日本語
    • 简体中文
    • 繁體中文
  • Have an account? Log in
    Have an account?
    · Forgot password?

    New to Twitter?
    Sign up
wycats's profile
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz  🥨
Verified account
@wycats

Tweets

Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account

@wycats

Tilde Co-Founder, OSS enthusiast and world traveler.

Portland, OR
yehudakatz.com
Joined August 2007

Tweets

  • © 2018 Twitter
  • About
  • Help Center
  • Terms
  • Privacy policy
  • Cookies
  • Ads info
Dismiss
Previous
Next

Go to a person's profile

Saved searches

  • Remove
  • In this conversation
    Verified accountProtected Tweets @
Suggested users
  • Verified accountProtected Tweets @
  • Verified accountProtected Tweets @

Promote this Tweet

Block

  • Tweet with a location

    You can add location information to your Tweets, such as your city or precise location, from the web and via third-party applications. You always have the option to delete your Tweet location history. Learn more

    Your lists

    Create a new list


    Under 100 characters, optional

    Privacy

    Copy link to Tweet

    Embed this Tweet

    Embed this Video

    Add this Tweet to your website by copying the code below. Learn more

    Add this video to your website by copying the code below. Learn more

    Hmm, there was a problem reaching the server.

    By embedding Twitter content in your website or app, you are agreeing to the Twitter Developer Agreement and Developer Policy.

    Preview

    Why you're seeing this ad

    Log in to Twitter

    · Forgot password?
    Don't have an account? Sign up »

    Sign up for Twitter

    Not on Twitter? Sign up, tune into the things you care about, and get updates as they happen.

    Sign up
    Have an account? Log in »

    Two-way (sending and receiving) short codes:

    Country Code For customers of
    United States 40404 (any)
    Canada 21212 (any)
    United Kingdom 86444 Vodafone, Orange, 3, O2
    Brazil 40404 Nextel, TIM
    Haiti 40404 Digicel, Voila
    Ireland 51210 Vodafone, O2
    India 53000 Bharti Airtel, Videocon, Reliance
    Indonesia 89887 AXIS, 3, Telkomsel, Indosat, XL Axiata
    Italy 4880804 Wind
    3424486444 Vodafone
    » See SMS short codes for other countries

    Confirmation

     

    Welcome home!

    This timeline is where you’ll spend most of your time, getting instant updates about what matters to you.

    Tweets not working for you?

    Hover over the profile pic and click the Following button to unfollow any account.

    Say a lot with a little

    When you see a Tweet you love, tap the heart — it lets the person who wrote it know you shared the love.

    Spread the word

    The fastest way to share someone else’s Tweet with your followers is with a Retweet. Tap the icon to send it instantly.

    Join the conversation

    Add your thoughts about any Tweet with a Reply. Find a topic you’re passionate about, and jump right in.

    Learn the latest

    Get instant insight into what people are talking about now.

    Get more of what you love

    Follow more accounts to get instant updates about topics you care about.

    Find what's happening

    See the latest conversations about any topic instantly.

    Never miss a Moment

    Catch up instantly on the best stories happening as they unfold.

    1. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub Sep 2

      Graydon Hoare Retweeted ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      I won’t @ them but limiting expressivity in order to limit cognitive load and keep codebases approachable is a totally legitimate move in language design. I’d even say essential. It’s all about balance, and expressivity _does_ have tradeoffs.https://twitter.com/SeanTAllen/status/1036236006872305665 …

      Graydon Hoare added,

      ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ @SeanTAllen
      Almost all the arguments I see against generics in go are pretty awful. "People might create abstractions I can't understand" is an awful argument. And that's the root of most argument I see. That's so broad that you can apply it to the base language itself. Don't @ me.
      Show this thread
      10 replies 29 retweets 128 likes
    2. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 3
      Replying to @graydon_pub

      In the case of generics, the cost of leaving out even simple generics has a high cognitive load cost. I have no problem with taking it slow and conservative; that's a reasonable place for them. But the koans and zealous arguments against generics disrupt the design process.

      2 replies 1 retweet 10 likes
    3. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub Sep 3
      Replying to @wycats

      I can't say I agree. The cognitive load of any static typing discipline is in mentally modelling the dynamic (unspecified-by-typing) residue; the residue-model gets simpler the fancier the types get, but nonlinearly. Balance is load of residue vs. load of the types themselves.

      2 replies 0 retweets 17 likes
    4. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub Sep 3
      Replying to @graydon_pub @wycats

      To me, the nonlinearity is the key here. Residue is already off the cliff of undecidability, so meaningful chunks are quite hard to take out of it. Whereas simpler type systems impose dramatically-less load than more-complex ones (which themselves often fall off same cliff).

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub Sep 3
      Replying to @graydon_pub @wycats

      Many users have experienced "my program is simple, but type system is so complex that I can't for the life of me get it to typecheck" which is .. a thing you want to reserve for only the gravest / most-pervasive problems if you want anyone to have the patience to use the thing.

      2 replies 1 retweet 11 likes
    6. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 3
      Replying to @graydon_pub

      Again, of course this is true. But type systems that in practice lean a lot on dynamic casts are playing a shell game with complexity that at least in my experience doesn't result in a type system that is as cognitively as simple as the formal model would imply.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 3
      Replying to @wycats @graydon_pub

      Rust's unsafe model is a good example of such an escape valve that allows the language to avoid an impossibly hard formal safety model. This is a good thing! But it would be less good if most programmers, even beginners, had to use the escape valve a lot to get things done.

      3:33 PM - 3 Sep 2018
      • 2 Likes
      • corvus frugilegus Joshua Yanovski
      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 3
          Replying to @wycats @graydon_pub

          And in such a world, keeping the formal model simple would have been a mirage, with practical Rust programs segfaulting all over the place. In this world, languages without a formal safety model would easily be able to argue against even *having* a safety model on these grounds

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 3
          Replying to @wycats @graydon_pub

          You're of course right about the non-linear nature of the tradeoff, but also assuming that Go crossed the breakeven point for the vast majority of the cases it's used for. There's good evidence (including the design of Go 2!) that this isn't quite right.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub Sep 3
          Replying to @wycats

          Agreed. I'm just saying it's not a slam dunk. There's plenty of evidence on the "no, actually, it's gone far enough for the intended balance" argument too. (I also think it's interesting that new compiler-supported polymorphic types and/or non-generic tycons aren't on the list.)

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        5. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Sep 3
          Replying to @graydon_pub

          Yeah, I think it's possible to argue that, but also interesting that it hasn't been sustained for a language that wants to be as general-purpose as Go. Someone might make another go at it, and it'd be interesting again!

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. End of conversation

      Loading seems to be taking a while.

      Twitter may be over capacity or experiencing a momentary hiccup. Try again or visit Twitter Status for more information.

        Promoted Tweet

        false

        • © 2018 Twitter
        • About
        • Help Center
        • Terms
        • Privacy policy
        • Cookies
        • Ads info