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wycats's profile
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz  🥨
Verified account
@wycats

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Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account

@wycats

Tilde Co-Founder, OSS enthusiast and world traveler.

Portland, OR
yehudakatz.com
Joined August 2007

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    Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Aug 21

    ES2015 symbols (originally, at least, from Racket) are an underappreciated innovation that make it easier to build and communicate good OO designs (in the Smalltalk sense).

    12:44 PM - 21 Aug 2018
    • 5 Retweets
    • 68 Likes
    • CascadiaJS 🇺🇸 🇨🇦 Ellova QUX Marco Amodio Erekhron Manotch Tim Doherty Daniel Martínez Montealegre. Yuriy Markov
    6 replies 5 retweets 68 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Jordi Bunster ☭‏ @notlaforge Aug 21
        Replying to @wycats

        You mean to avoid nominal coupling?

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Aug 21
        Replying to @notlaforge

        Not quite. I mean to clearly separate the entire space of the "kernel API" of a class from its convenience methods. Even in a nominal system, it becomes drastically easier to write a good subclass if you know what the kernel surface is.

        1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
      4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Aug 21
        Replying to @wycats @notlaforge

        For example, in Ruby, it's very hard to write a subclass of Hash because there's no kernel that methods like merge use (look at HashWithIndifferentAccess as an example). And worse, it's hard to add conveniences to the superclass without breaking subclasses

        2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      5. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Aug 21
        Replying to @wycats @notlaforge

        Symbols make it easy to signal which parts of the API are the kernel bits, and therefore which parts need to be implemented in order to get the right behavior out of convenience methods. OO design is hard so it doesn't magically work, but it helps the design and communication.

        0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      6. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth Aug 21
        Replying to @wycats

        I think similar features have existed for a long time in other OO systems such as Smalltalk and CL. The most Racket-inspired parts of @littlecalculist's original `private` proposal got dropped along the way. But overall, definitely a win.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Aug 21
        Replying to @samth @littlecalculist

        What Smalltalk feature is analogous? In particular I'm referring to a syntactic and ergonomic distinction between the kernel of an OO API from its intended usage (and in some cases, from the "interface to implement" and the intended API surface)

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth Aug 21
        Replying to @wycats @littlecalculist

        I think it was called namespaces in Smalltalk.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Aug 21
        Replying to @samth @littlecalculist

        Ah. Sometimes people use abstract to signal the "kernel" distinction in typed languages, but: 1. That creates a conflict between adding a default impl and retaining the signal 2. It doesn't communicate to readers of API users that the code is doing something "kernel"y

        2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      6. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Aug 21
        Replying to @wycats @samth @littlecalculist

        I think it's possible to use namespaces for this purpose, but it doesn't fall out as easily the way it does with symbols.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      7. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth Aug 21
        Replying to @wycats @littlecalculist

        RIght, I think symbols are a particularly nice way of doing this. I do wish we had done Dave's original `private x` syntax, though.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      8. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Aug 21
        Replying to @samth @littlecalculist

        The thing that symbols buy you imo is a way to use the flexibility of lexical scope and good module systems along with OO concepts. The two compose very very nicely, and are (to me) notably missing in Ruby and Smalltalk. I'm hoping for (and trying to champion) private #x, btw

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      9. End of conversation
      1. Josh Justice  🛤 🐹 ✌️ ⚛️‏ @CodingItWrong Aug 21
        Replying to @wycats

        As a Rubyist for whom Smalltalk is the mythical golden age, I would love more details on this!!

        0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
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      1. Mike Samuel‏ @mvsamuel Aug 21
        Replying to @wycats

        If you've a clear distinction between kernel methods and mere API/convenience methods would preventing overriding of everything but the kernel let you delineate the kernel without complicating implementation?

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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      1. Adam Rackis‏ @AdamRackis Aug 21
        Replying to @wycats

        How though? The symbols still show up when inspected. Is the assumption that those Symbol items will just be assumed to be non-kernal api?pic.twitter.com/JFZuluTEqm

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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      1. elcom  🤔‏ @elcomeq Aug 24
        Replying to @wycats

        Is there an example you can share?

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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