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wycats's profile
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz  🥨
Verified account
@wycats

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Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account

@wycats

Tilde Co-Founder, OSS enthusiast and world traveler.

Portland, OR
yehudakatz.com
Joined August 2007

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    Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Aug 2

    I've often heard people say that hard links are "dangerous". Since you can't hard link a directory on Linux (and shouldn't on OSX 😱), where does the alleged risk come from?

    11:48 AM - 2 Aug 2018
    • 3 Likes
    • Binbsr Spooky Public Key Info (SPKI)
    8 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Andy Leeper  ✌️ 🌈 🎉‏ @nivenhuh Aug 2
        Replying to @wycats

        Time machine works(ed) via hard links

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Aug 2
        Replying to @nivenhuh

        But why does that mean that if I create a hard link myself it will be dangerous?

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. Andy Leeper  ✌️ 🌈 🎉‏ @nivenhuh Aug 2
        Replying to @wycats

        Who says it’s dangerous?

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Aug 2
        Replying to @nivenhuh

        I've heard it over and over again.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      6. Andy Leeper  ✌️ 🌈 🎉‏ @nivenhuh Aug 2
        Replying to @wycats

        Ah, no clue, I’ve never heard that! Used hardlinks heavily on HFS+ without issue.

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      7. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Guido Kollerie‏ @guidok Aug 2
        Replying to @wycats

        Hard links to directories can create cycles in what otherwise would be a tree structure. These cycles could confuse tools that traverse directories, creating loops.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Aug 2
        Replying to @guidok

        Linux literally doesn't allow directory hard links. OSX claims not to in the manual and only supports them for internal use in Time Machine (and you should pretend they don't exist).

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Full Name‏ @DunkirkOG Aug 2
        Replying to @wycats

        I've always understood that it was because it was (essentially) invisible. So, if you deleted the file from one place, it would disappear from every other place it was linked, which may not have been what you wanted.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Spooky Public Key Info (SPKI)‏ @bascule Aug 2
        Replying to @DunkirkOG @wycats

        You seem confused. The behavior you’re describing is literally the opposite of how unlink(2) actually works. You can’t have dangling hard links. You can, however, very easily have dangling symlinks.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      4. Full Name‏ @DunkirkOG Aug 2
        Replying to @bascule @wycats

        I don’t think I even implied that deleting a hard-linked file would leave a dangling link? I’m lost.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. Spooky Public Key Info (SPKI)‏ @bascule Aug 2
        Replying to @DunkirkOG @wycats

        Uhh... “So, if you deleted the file from one place, it would disappear from every other place it was linked”

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      6. Full Name‏ @DunkirkOG Aug 2
        Replying to @bascule @wycats

        Yes. It simply disappears. There’s nothing left hanging. What am I missing here?

        2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      7. Trent Lloyd  🦆‏ @lathiat Aug 2
        Replying to @DunkirkOG @bascule @wycats

        The other file isn’t effected. The deletion only affects the name you deleted. The other name and all of the contents still exist in it. The same cannot be said for modifying the file however, if you modify the files contents inplace both copies are changed which is not obvious.

        0 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
      8. End of conversation
      1. Mark Przepiora‏ @MarkPrzepiora Aug 3
        Replying to @wycats

        Hard links are awesome! You can also use them in clever rsync setups to do incremental backups that don’t get confused when you move files around. See Gilles’ answer here.https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/102620/rsync-that-handles-moves-sensibly …

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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      1. julsevern‏ @julsevern Aug 3
        Replying to @wycats

        I tried to delete some long-time abandoned habitat studio started on my home dir on linux. No, I didn’t have backups, and the years of piled up garbage is now gone.

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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      1. New conversation
      2. Edward Faulkner‏ @eaf4 Aug 2
        Replying to @wycats

        It’s dangerous because in-place mutation of files happens, and when it does you’re causing spooky action at a distance.

        2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Stefan Penner‏ @stefanpenner Aug 2
        Replying to @eaf4 @wycats

        Also rm -rf of hardlink -> symlink -> dir leads to some fun expected data loss on hfs

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. Stefan Penner‏ @stefanpenner Aug 2
        Replying to @stefanpenner @eaf4 @wycats

        I wonder if that’s an issue on apfs...

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Stefan Penner‏ @stefanpenner Aug 2
        Replying to @wycats

        rm -rf traversal through hard links on OSX can lead to unexpected data loss:https://github.com/broccolijs/broccoli/issues/88 …

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Stefan Penner‏ @stefanpenner Aug 2
        Replying to @stefanpenner @wycats

        This may be a feature to some and a bug to others

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. Stefan Penner‏ @stefanpenner Aug 2
        Replying to @stefanpenner @wycats

        @thomasABoyt had a good reproduction:https://gist.github.com/thomasboyt/9935811 …

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. End of conversation

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