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wycats's profile
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz 🥨
Yehuda Katz  🥨
Verified account
@wycats

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Yehuda Katz  🥨Verified account

@wycats

Tilde Co-Founder, OSS enthusiast and world traveler.

Portland, OR
yehudakatz.com
Joined August 2007

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    1. Sam Saffron‏ @samsaffron Jun 1
      Replying to @codinghorror @sgrif

      It is fair to say that for me it is very disappointing that https://rubyonrails.org/doctrine/  says nothing about performance. Performance is not a priority for the doctrine. Consumers of Rails at scale have a very different take.

      1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
    2. Sean Griffin‏ @sgrif Jun 1
      Replying to @samsaffron @codinghorror

      "Performance is secondary to developer happiness" is not the same as "we actively don't care about performance". Rails is a project run by volunteers and has limited resources. Y'all are talking like we're actively just ignoring performance, vs having to prioritize our time.

      5 replies 1 retweet 41 likes
    3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Jun 1
      Replying to @sgrif @samsaffron @codinghorror

      There are also plenty of people, yourself included, who have spent sustained effort improving Rails performance. The false dichotomy is really destructive to both causes, and create gridlock between perspectives that gets nothing done.

      1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
    4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Jun 1
      Replying to @wycats @sgrif and

      What's the point of rhetoric that convinces folks who want to improve developer ergonomics that their goals are in conflict with performance? What do you think will happen over the long haul if performance-minded folks act like the tradeoff is zero-sum?

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    5. Jeff Atwood‏Verified account @codinghorror Jun 1
      Replying to @wycats @sgrif @samsaffron

      It's funny that you bring this up, because we want a Merb style outcome here and that's what we are working toward. I honestly don't feel AR can be fixed because of the deep seated cultural issues of "developer happiness > everything else"

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Jun 1
      Replying to @codinghorror @sgrif @samsaffron

      If that's true about AR it should absolutely have been true about Glimmer. Developer friendly APIs are declarative enough to make under the hood changes with profound effects.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Jeff Atwood‏Verified account @codinghorror Jun 1
      Replying to @wycats @sgrif @samsaffron

      More developers should internalize the fact that performance actually matters... at *LEAST* equal to "developer happiness". If they did, we'd have made more progress by now, rather than having to drag people, kicking and screaming, across the goal line

      2 replies 1 retweet 2 likes
    8. Sean Griffin‏ @sgrif Jun 1
      Replying to @codinghorror @wycats @samsaffron

      Please stop generalizing every person who works on Rails as a homogenous group. You are putting words in our mouths that are not true.

      2 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
    9. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Jun 1
      Replying to @sgrif @codinghorror @samsaffron

      It's also just actually true that sometimes performance is an ergonomics issue. @ryanflorence made this point very viscerally years ago to the Ember community in his React talk about how bad performance sometimes makes it hard to say "yes" to features.

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    10. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Jun 1
      Replying to @wycats @sgrif and

      Every time someone uses rhetoric that makes the two seem at odds, we are set back years of community consensus building, as people entrench into tribes that accept the false dichotomy. I love the Rust ecosystem for making a rejection of the conflict a core value.

      1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
      Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Jun 1
      Replying to @wycats @sgrif and

      I'd much rather see Rails reject the conflict and embrace win-win solutions in the Doctrine than bludgeoning people who care about ergonomics to get them to agree that their concerns are subordinate to performance.

      3:49 PM - 1 Jun 2018
      • 1 Like
      • Sam Saffron
      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. Jeff Atwood‏Verified account @codinghorror Jun 1
          Replying to @wycats @sgrif and

          for that to even begin, there has to be top-level Doctrine acknowledgement that performance maybe.. kinda.. matters.. even a little? a smidge? a dash?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Jeff Atwood‏Verified account @codinghorror Jun 1
          Replying to @codinghorror @wycats and

          otherwise it looks a lot like Doctrine level DevHappy bludgeoning. Your users will have so much time in between requests to think about how ecstatically happy they are! Oh wait.. you mean users should be happy too? 🤔

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Jun 1
          Replying to @codinghorror @sgrif and

          I don't read the Doctrine the way you do, even on its own terms. It's saying that we focus more on dev hapiness because it's harder. It doesn't say performance doesn't matter, and the amount of aggregate time spent on performance really doesn't match this claim.pic.twitter.com/odN6zzkV0H

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        5. Jeff Atwood‏Verified account @codinghorror Jun 1
          Replying to @wycats @sgrif and

          dev happiness is pretty easy these days, in a way it was not in 2004. So many choices, so many mature frameworks. Performance, on the other hand, has hit a brick wall in terms of hardware advancing.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. Jeff Atwood‏Verified account @codinghorror Jun 1
          Replying to @codinghorror @wycats and

          Beyond that, what if I told you I could reduce your cloud server hosting costs by 50 percent.. with *free performance*? https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/12/29/how-we-made-editing-wikipedia-twice-as-fast/ …

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Jun 1
          Replying to @codinghorror @sgrif and

          This is what DHH usually says to that. I think we can do better than that, but DHH has never ever rejected free speed, and has welcomed work to make it happen in my experience.pic.twitter.com/Xcwh0ILJkw

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        8. Jeff Atwood‏Verified account @codinghorror Jun 1
          Replying to @wycats @sgrif and

          All that reflects the Basecamp View, which is that "as long as we can host it the way we want, we don't care about anyone else". It's an internal biz, closed source centric view. A big reason why there are so few large ruby / rails open source projects.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        9. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Jun 1
          Replying to @codinghorror @sgrif and

          The mitigating factor is that DHH embraces non-conflicting improvements made by other people who want to do work on Rails. "Work on what you use and share the rest" is the watchword. True conflicts are rare.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        10. 1 more reply
        1. New conversation
        2. Sean Griffin‏ @sgrif Jun 1
          Replying to @wycats @codinghorror and

          I don't think that has ever happened.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Jun 1
          Replying to @sgrif @codinghorror and

          It's what this thread is attempting to do. I want to reject it.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Yehuda Katz  🥨‏Verified account @wycats Jun 1
          Replying to @wycats @sgrif and

          You were probably being sarcastic 😳

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. End of conversation

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