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whitequark's profile
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@whitequark

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whitequark

@whitequark

http://whitequark.org  · http://llvm.moe  · http://powerlinesinanime.tumblr.com  · working on quantum computers for a living · DMs open · she

Joined July 2010

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    1. whitequark‏ @whitequark Sep 22

      whitequark Retweeted julienPauli

      "Windows 95 was 30 MB" is such an ignorant, obnoxious, trite take. a triple buffered framebuffer (which you want for smooth scrolling) for my 4K display is 70 MB in *pixels alone*. Obviously a complete webpage with precomposed textures would take more.https://twitter.com/julienPauli/status/1042113172143067138 …

      whitequark added,

      julienPauli @julienPauli
      "Windows 95 was 30Mb. Today we have web pages heavier than that! Google keyboard app routinely eats 150 Mb. Is an app that draws 30 keys on a screen really five times more complex than the whole Windows 95?" **Must Read** : http://tonsky.me/blog/disenchantment/ …
      28 replies 160 retweets 571 likes
      Show this thread
    2. avatar of devastation‏ @hierarchon Sep 22
      Replying to @whitequark

      this article says "Linux kills random processes by design. And yet it’s the most popular server-side OS." which i assume is talking about the OOM-killer but makes me imagine, like, linux just randomly killing processes for no reason

      3 replies 1 retweet 13 likes
    3. whitequark‏ @whitequark Sep 22
      Replying to @hierarchon

      you can just turn off overcommit if you want. actually understanding that doesn't make for a good rant though

      2 replies 1 retweet 14 likes
    4. Eyal Lotem  🔥‏ @EyalL Sep 22
      Replying to @whitequark @hierarchon

      I'm sure he understands that. There are better solutions than the oom killer, even for overcommit. And overcommit is so common because of a Unix design error (fork)

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. whitequark‏ @whitequark Sep 23
      Replying to @EyalL @hierarchon

      40-year-old Unix also had fork though

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    6. Eyal Lotem  🔥‏ @EyalL Sep 23
      Replying to @whitequark @hierarchon

      It didn't have the oom killer, so it had to have sensible page eviction/swapping solutions or just swap to death on overcommit

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. Elazar Leibovich‏ @elazarl Sep 23
      Replying to @EyalL @whitequark @hierarchon

      What are the better than OOM solution when low in memory? You could argue that OOM killer is worse than no solution, but AFAICT neither Windows nor Solaris has any solution. They just let you die while paging out, you can do that with Linux too.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      whitequark‏ @whitequark Sep 23
      Replying to @elazarl @EyalL @hierarchon

      one could argue that a better solution is to return an error from malloc/mmap/fork when a page needs to be reserved but doesn't have anything to back it.

      6:18 AM - 23 Sep 2018
      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Elazar Leibovich‏ @elazarl Sep 23
          Replying to @whitequark @EyalL @hierarchon

          I see, but I would argue that returning an error from malloc is not too different than killing the process, so I'm not sure if the extra effort really worth it for desktop applications. (should mmap do that with signal? Not entirely sure how would that work).

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. whitequark‏ @whitequark Sep 23
          Replying to @elazarl @EyalL @hierarchon

          mmap can return an error too. the benefit of returning an error is that you can actually handle it, and e.g. free some caches and try again.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Elazar Leibovich‏ @elazarl Sep 23
          Replying to @whitequark @EyalL @hierarchon

          IIRC there are solutions for these usecases too: https://lwn.net/Articles/590960/ … I thought you had in mind signaling the app that accessed anonymous page w/o backing physical page. If you're unwilling to virtually allocate without physical pages, isn't that possible with Linux?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Eyal Lotem  🔥‏ @EyalL Sep 23
          Replying to @elazarl @whitequark @hierarchon

          I'm willing to virtually allocate, I want smart ram eviction (+swap) rather than arbitrary killing.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Elazar Leibovich‏ @elazarl Sep 23
          Replying to @EyalL @whitequark @hierarchon

          Check out the link, you can get just that with Linux. And as you know, killing is not arbitrary, it can be improved, but I don't think calling heuristic people worked on "arbitrary" is constructive.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. 1 more reply
        1. New conversation
        2. Eyal Lotem  🔥‏ @EyalL Sep 23
          Replying to @whitequark @elazarl @hierarchon

          Iow, disabling overcommit. Another alternative is to swap out pages of processes that spread their resident memory too widely, as to make thrashers pay for their thrashing rather than the entire rest of the system

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Eyal Lotem  🔥‏ @EyalL Sep 23
          Replying to @EyalL @whitequark and

          And there are probably more alternatives, but once a "solution" is found, that kind of works most of the time, it's "good enough" and improvements are uphill battle against entrenched solution, as bad as it is. Quality (efficiency and correctness) are not important enough

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Eyal Lotem  🔥‏ @EyalL Sep 23
          Replying to @EyalL @whitequark and

          I have my own example: a list of gripes with all existing build systems that make them quite terrible, especially reliability wise. I wrote buildsome to address these gripes, but most people just don't mind the occasional Voodoo bug from incorrect builds

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Elazar Leibovich‏ @elazarl Sep 23
          Replying to @EyalL @whitequark @hierarchon

          While I'm sure buildsome is great, I think there are other correct buildsystems, and tup-like build systems also have issues with correctness. But I agree with the general spirit. It's better to avoid too much effort for fixing a recoverable bug happening once in a blue moon.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Eyal Lotem  🔥‏ @EyalL Sep 23
          Replying to @elazarl @whitequark @hierarchon

          Tup like build systems have a small subset of the problems, that are inherent in free form execution. If you use file system access only, you will have deterministic builds. And quality not being worth the effort is what the rant is all about. I think quality is very important

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Eyal Lotem  🔥‏ @EyalL Sep 23
          Replying to @EyalL @elazarl and

          And the voodoo bugs aren't that rare, it's just that they're shrugged off without even knowing where they're from. It creates a culture of ignoring bugs. Of distrusting test results. Makes catching rare races so much harder. Pollutes everything with uncertainty

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. End of conversation

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