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wellerstein's profile
Alex Wellerstein
Alex Wellerstein
Alex Wellerstein
Verified account
@wellerstein

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Alex WellersteinVerified account

@wellerstein

Historian of science, secrecy, and nuclear weapons. Professor of STS at @FollowStevens. UC Berkeley alum with a Harvard PhD. NUKEMAP creator. Coder and web dev.

Hoboken, NJ / NYC
blog.nuclearsecrecy.com
Joined September 2011

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    1. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein Aug 6
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      This isn't meant to be a naive statement. "War is hell." I know the causes of WWII, and the reasons why the atomic bombs were seen as an expedient and necessary action by those who were involved in dropping them. I do not absolve the Japanese militarists for their role in this.

      2 replies 32 retweets 227 likes
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    2. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein Aug 6
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      In principle, if you think the bombings were necessary, you should still be able to accommodate that belief without ignoring any of the above. In reality, I find most defenders want to look the other way when it comes to the consequences. To do so is to take an incomplete view.

      2 replies 49 retweets 399 likes
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    3. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein Aug 6
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      Even Truman, the endless defender of the bombings, seemed to harbor deep unhappiness about their collateral damage. In Dec. 1945 he referred to the bomb as "the most terrible of all destructive forces for the wholesale slaughter of human beings" — he didn't whitewash it.

      2 replies 56 retweets 313 likes
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    4. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein Aug 6
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      One can invoke, of course, the hypothetical lives the bomb saved. Because they are hypothetical, they can be nearly as many as you want them to be (and the defenders of the bombings revised that number upwards and upwards over the years), and whomever you want them to be.

      2 replies 33 retweets 204 likes
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    5. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein Aug 6
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      But I can't help but feel that the actual dead deserve a bit more attention, versus the hypothetical dead. I know: your grandfather was slated to be in the invasion, you might not be here, etc. (Assuming the war didn't end prior to November 1945, which it may well have.)

      4 replies 31 retweets 264 likes
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    6. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein Aug 6
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      But even in that situation you've still got to reconcile with the costs. You've got to say, "I am OK with all of those children having died, so that I may live." I find that a defensible statement. But I rarely hear people say it — because it's hard.

      8 replies 47 retweets 281 likes
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    7. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein Aug 6
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      I guess that's my argument, here: if you want to defend the bombings, that's fine with me. There are certainly arguments to that end. But you can't ignore the consequences of them. To do that puts us in a dangerous place; an "ends justify the means" that overlooks the "means."

      6 replies 45 retweets 307 likes
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    8. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein Aug 6
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      Truman managed to defend the bombings, while being very open about the horror, once he learned of it. He turned that into a desire not to have nuclear weapons be used ever again, if it was possible. He's a more complex figure on this than his detractors or defenders tend to know.

      25 replies 49 retweets 402 likes
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    9. Toby Saul‏ @TobySaul Aug 6
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      Replying to @wellerstein

      I hadn't seen those photos before. I'm in your debt for showing them to me. I agree with a lot of this. I think you're wrong, however, to talk about lives saved as 'hypothetical'. The tragedy is that the bombs really did stop the war.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein Aug 6
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      Replying to @TobySaul

      There's a lot of debate — and I don't want to rehash it — about what exactly caused Japan to finally agree to surrender. The bombs may have played a role, though the amount is unclear. Soviet invasion clearly mattered a lot, too.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein Aug 6
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      Replying to @wellerstein @TobySaul

      Either way, the lives are "hypothetical" — you have to imagine the war continued until November 1945 (maybe), that the US invaded Kyushu, and maybe went on to invade Honshu (which was not yet approved). Then you have to imagine how deadly you think that'd all be.

      12:08 PM - 6 Aug 2019
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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        2. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein Aug 6
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          Replying to @wellerstein @TobySaul

          Either way, those are hypotheticals — it's hard to know, and there's a lot of uncertainty in all of those counts, and people tend to guess high or low depending on their pre-held beliefs about the bombs. That's what I meant by it.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Toby Saul‏ @TobySaul Aug 6
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          Replying to @wellerstein

          Yes I understand. As far as I can tell the bombs were decisive but could obis be wrong. It's just that we also need to think about the Chinese schoolchildren, say, who would have died under continued Japanese occupation.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Toby Saul‏ @TobySaul Aug 6
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          Replying to @TobySaul @wellerstein

          If the bombs hadn't been used, we could look at pictures of them and try to weigh them against the 'hypothetical' Japanese lives that were saved. If that makes sense.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. End of conversation

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