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I guess that's my argument, here: if you want to defend the bombings, that's fine with me. There are certainly arguments to that end. But you can't ignore the consequences of them. To do that puts us in a dangerous place; an "ends justify the means" that overlooks the "means."
Truman managed to defend the bombings, while being very open about the horror, once he learned of it. He turned that into a desire not to have nuclear weapons be used ever again, if it was possible. He's a more complex figure on this than his detractors or defenders tend to know.
I find it notable that this whole thread makes zero reference to the tens of millions of Asians that Imperial Japan has slaughtered up to that point.
I do make a reference to the Japanese militarists; I certainly do not absolve Japan for their role in the war, or the horror they wrought on their neighbors. In the US educational context, this is heavily emphasized. It doesn't make killing Japanese children any better, IMO.
I know you don't mean to absolve anyone. I just find it interesting millions of Asian deaths never entered your moral calculus. The argument is a bit different when it iss: "I'm OK with all these children having died, because for their sake, many millions have been killed."
Yeah, but that's an argument for endless slaughter of innocents — they kill your children, you kill their children, and on and on. It's a bad argument. It's not a real moral calculus, it's just a justification for death.
The most thoughtful Japanese I talked to in Japan read the lesson of Hiroshima like this: Hiroshima shows what happens when you let terrible leaders do terrible things in your name; let's never do that again. I think that's a sentiment that balances both sides of the issue.
Ah - "both sides." There's that magic word.
(By "both sides," I simply mean, acknowledging the mutual horrors.)
Mutual horrors... that the Asians inflicted on the Japanese during WWII?
I hadn't seen those photos before. I'm in your debt for showing them to me. I agree with a lot of this. I think you're wrong, however, to talk about lives saved as 'hypothetical'. The tragedy is that the bombs really did stop the war.
There's a lot of debate — and I don't want to rehash it — about what exactly caused Japan to finally agree to surrender. The bombs may have played a role, though the amount is unclear. Soviet invasion clearly mattered a lot, too.
Either way, the lives are "hypothetical" — you have to imagine the war continued until November 1945 (maybe), that the US invaded Kyushu, and maybe went on to invade Honshu (which was not yet approved). Then you have to imagine how deadly you think that'd all be.
Either way, those are hypotheticals — it's hard to know, and there's a lot of uncertainty in all of those counts, and people tend to guess high or low depending on their pre-held beliefs about the bombs. That's what I meant by it.
Yes I understand. As far as I can tell the bombs were decisive but could obis be wrong. It's just that we also need to think about the Chinese schoolchildren, say, who would have died under continued Japanese occupation.
If the bombs hadn't been used, we could look at pictures of them and try to weigh them against the 'hypothetical' Japanese lives that were saved. If that makes sense.
The problem is that Truman's regrets were private and secret, his lies and bravado public. And those created today's world.
Thank you for this thread.
I would say he did not "manage" to defend but "enthusiastically" defended (even intervened to promote that view in the MGM movie) for rest of his life (with occasional exceptions), and happily pushed ahead with developing hydrogen bomb despite concerns raised at the time.
Thank you for this thread. After I saw Hiroshima and the Peace Museum there, I wanted nothing more than to make the whole world walk through it all--the skeleton of that tower, the 1000 cranes, the photographs of the people in the bomb zone. See and understand.
Well said. Too many defend the actions of the US in WWII without taking responsibility. The bomb was a horrendous and (easily arguable) gratuitous act of violence. Being a victor doesn’t put you in the moral right.
I think it was the right decision but you are absolutely right. Thought I do think comparing to hypothetical dead is a bit of a red herring. Considering the bombs had a casualty rate akin to the bombing of Tokyo I think it's safe to assume it was FAR less than invasion.
And yes, I have been to Hiroshima and do all I can to fully understand the horror involved. I think the fundamental lesson is to avoid a world where the sort of debate on if it's worth it is a completely meaningless question.
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