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wellerstein's profile
Alex Wellerstein
Alex Wellerstein
Alex Wellerstein
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@wellerstein

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Alex WellersteinVerified account

@wellerstein

Historian of science, secrecy, and nuclear weapons. Professor of STS at @FollowStevens. UC Berkeley alum with a Harvard PhD. NUKEMAP creator. Coder and web dev.

Hoboken, NJ / NYC
blog.nuclearsecrecy.com
Joined September 2011

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    1. Dan McLaughlin‏Verified account @baseballcrank 9 Aug 2018
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      14. The atmosphere of the time was one in which US leaders defaulted to "whatever ends the war fastest is the most humane." That Shermanesque view, too, was both traditionally American and a rational response to those conditions. There'd always be fresh horrors until it was over.

      1 reply 10 retweets 108 likes
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    2. Dan McLaughlin‏Verified account @baseballcrank 9 Aug 2018
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      15. No American president - not even Washington or Grant - had seen worse ground combat up close in his life than Truman, an artillery officer in the ghastly 6-week Meuse-Argonne offensive that ended WWI. Truman's sense of war was visceral.

      5 replies 22 retweets 152 likes
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    3. Dan McLaughlin‏Verified account @baseballcrank 9 Aug 2018
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      16. As to wanting to head off the Soviets, given their train of atrocities in Europe and the history of Communism, it's hard to fault Truman for wanting both to forestall the Soviet advance and overawe them with American power. See, again, the specter of 1918.

      1 reply 7 retweets 81 likes
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    4. Dan McLaughlin‏Verified account @baseballcrank 9 Aug 2018
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      17. By some counts, the Red Army raped about 2 million women in Germany and triggered a colossal refugee crisis. It's not an inconsiderable humanitarian thought to avoid a replay of that in the East.

      3 replies 7 retweets 83 likes
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    5. Dan McLaughlin‏Verified account @baseballcrank 9 Aug 2018
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      18. Finally, histories that focus narrowly on what was said in the high chambers of US and Japanese policymakers take an unduly cramped view, especially given American democracy. Truman didn't just have strategic decisions to make, he had life and death choices to justify.

      1 reply 4 retweets 66 likes
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    6. Dan McLaughlin‏Verified account @baseballcrank 9 Aug 2018
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      19. If Truman was harsh with the Japanese, he had a nation of grieving families behind him. Public opinion in 1945 showed many Americans wished we had dropped more bombs. Which, again, is an easy thing to deride cheaply from the distance of 2018.

      4 replies 14 retweets 135 likes
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    7. Dan McLaughlin‏Verified account @baseballcrank 9 Aug 2018
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      20. So, Truman did what the righteous fury of four years of the bitterest war demanded, and made a lasting peace. You could say that of precious few of our wars since 1945, which suggests maybe Truman knew something we have forgotten about man and war. /end

      40 replies 41 retweets 286 likes
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    8. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein 10 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @baseballcrank

      Hi Dan, thanks for engaging. A few brief thoughts: 1. I agree 100% that "unconditional surrender" predated Truman. Didn't try to imply otherwise. But you seem to leave out that there were MANY folks (including Churchill!) who, by Potsdam, thought it was worth reconsidering.

      1 reply 1 retweet 5 likes
    9. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein 10 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @wellerstein @baseballcrank

      In fact, pretty much everyone who weighed in on the issue at Potsdam, including military and State analysts, thought it was a loser of a strategy, because the MAGIC intercepts made it so clear that the Japanese were really "stuck" on one condition (the Emperor).

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    10. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein 10 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @wellerstein @baseballcrank

      Truman and Byrnes thought otherwise. And hey — I am OK with people saying, "I think they were right." But you make it sound like it was an unassailable thing. In fact it was one of the major decisions Truman made, and should be recognized as such, rightly or wrongly.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein 10 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @wellerstein @baseballcrank

      And — just to make it clear — my "goal" here is to emphasize the decisions and the choices, the areas of contingency and individual agency. Both because many people mis-locate them (e.g., in the "decision to use the bomb," which didn't happen), and because

      2:14 PM - 10 Aug 2018
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein 10 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @wellerstein @baseballcrank

          there are a lot of narratives that stress inevitability (which is a form of responsibility-dodging). Whether people think the choices were good or bad is a separate question from indicating what the choices were.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        3. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein 10 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @wellerstein @baseballcrank

          2. You're repeating the old "bombs versus invasion" line — and one of my points (and every scholar in the last 15-20 years?) is that this wasn't actually the choice as anyone saw it in 1945. That's an after-the-fact justification, one cooked up only after the bombs "worked."

          1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
        4. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein 10 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @wellerstein @baseballcrank

          This is an important thing to wrestle with, because OBVIOUSLY if the choice is "drop two atomic bombs OR suffer a terrible invasion that kills huge numbers of Americans and Japanese" the only appropriate response is the former.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        5. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein 10 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @wellerstein @baseballcrank

          But as many historians have documented, that WASN'T how any American policymakers saw it in July 1945. Their plan was bomb AND invade. Several top-level people (Groves made it very explicit) thought it would take upwards of EIGHT atomic bombs to end the war.

          1 reply 1 retweet 6 likes
        6. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein 10 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @wellerstein @baseballcrank

          Obviously these folks couldn't predict the future. And if the bombs COULD end the war prior to an invasion — sure, that's a benefit. But if you buy into the "bomb or invade" framework, you're already prejudicing the results, and repeating a myth.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        7. Dan McLaughlin‏Verified account @baseballcrank 10 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @wellerstein

          See, this part is where the indeterminacy comes in. Nobody knew what it would take for Japan to surrender. At best it was an educated guess. So at every juncture, the decision to press with every available tool was weighed against not knowing what straw would finally break them.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        8. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein 10 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @baseballcrank

          I agree. But realize that you're already moving away from the "we had to use the bomb because we knew it would end the war before invasion" version of the story by acknowledging this. :-)

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        9. Tom Nichols‏Verified account @RadioFreeTom 10 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @wellerstein @baseballcrank

          I’m not moving away from “this or invasion” because of the, you know, plans for invasion. Even some of the critical historians on this argue that Truman overestimated the costs, but it wasn’t post-facto rationalization.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        10. End of conversation

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