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wellerstein's profile
Alex Wellerstein
Alex Wellerstein
Alex Wellerstein
Verified account
@wellerstein

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Alex WellersteinVerified account

@wellerstein

Historian of science, secrecy, and nuclear weapons. Professor of STS at @FollowStevens. UC Berkeley alum with a Harvard PhD. NUKEMAP creator. Coder and web dev.

Hoboken, NJ / NYC
blog.nuclearsecrecy.com
Joined September 2011

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    1. Brian F. Kelcey‏ @stateofthecity 9 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @wellerstein

      I don't have time to spend hrs replying to your comments (some of which I like, some not so much). I might come back to it on the weekend. But I have to cut in with a few points worth adding that often get skipped in this line of argument... /1

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Brian F. Kelcey‏ @stateofthecity 9 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @stateofthecity @wellerstein

      (And 1.5, for the record, I think healthy debate on this issue is always welcome, even when I'm disagreeing with the context given...)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Brian F. Kelcey‏ @stateofthecity 9 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @stateofthecity @wellerstein

      /2 Yes, the Japanese military was in rough shape *in Japan,* but there's been much historiography lately demonstrating that it was rearming rapidly, and was ready to provide formidable if unsophisticated resistance to any landing...

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Brian F. Kelcey‏ @stateofthecity 9 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @stateofthecity @wellerstein

      /3 ...but your comment on dodging the Kyushu landing by months skips the part almost all modern critics of the decision skip idly past. and that's the other 75% of the war that was still underway. Japan was isolated; the Japanese Army was not.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Brian F. Kelcey‏ @stateofthecity 9 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @stateofthecity @wellerstein

      /4 My grandfather and 400k+ other allied troops were in active contact with the enemy on the Burmese border, while US Eighth Army was still fighting Japanese troops in Mindanao and Luzon. And lest we forget, in China...

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Brian F. Kelcey‏ @stateofthecity 9 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @stateofthecity @wellerstein

      /5 ...*the protection of which was, after all, the cause of the US embargo in '41* - you have millions of troops still locked in battle as well, which were very much on the US govt's mind. And then you have the civilians in occupied areas, + POWs -

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Brian F. Kelcey‏ @stateofthecity 9 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @stateofthecity @wellerstein

      /6 ...the former literally numbering hundreds of millions, the latter over 100k IIRC, who were known to be facing starvation or mistreatment to varying degrees depending exposure to disrupted food supplies, occupation & war crimes, or both.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein 9 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @stateofthecity

      If what you're getting at is, "war is hell and ending war is better than continuing it" — I mean, I agree, in principle. The question is always the means.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    9. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein 9 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @wellerstein @stateofthecity

      My point is that the "2 bombs on 2 cities in 3 days versus invasion" framework is inadequate, historically. It's a postwar creation meant to justify the bombings, not a reflection of how it was seen by anyone involved at the time.

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    10. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein 9 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @wellerstein @stateofthecity

      You seem to be wanting to get into the moral question (which I've not really ventured into in this thread at all, just poked at), which is something a bit different from that.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein 9 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @wellerstein @stateofthecity

      But if I were to prod you on the moral question, here's how I'd frame it: Under what conditions is it moral act for a state to deliberately set hundreds of thousands of civilians on fire, by any means, to achieve its military or political aims?

      6:44 PM - 9 Aug 2018
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        2. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein 9 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @wellerstein @stateofthecity

          I'm not saying there aren't any. Maybe they're the conditions you've outlined. But it refocuses attention around the specific means. Because in the end, if you are going to imply that the ends always justify the means in such a situation — that's a pretty dark road to go down.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Alex Wellerstein‏Verified account @wellerstein 9 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @wellerstein @stateofthecity

          But to your general point, in no way would I want to imply that the war wasn't hell, and especially for the peoples occupied or captured by the Japanese. I don't let them off the hook. I try to not let *anyone* off the hook.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
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        2. Brian F. Kelcey‏ @stateofthecity 9 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @wellerstein

          I have no issue w/ anyone asking that moral question whatsoever. I often ask it myself in the Japanese & German context re: WW2 area bombing, etc. But I do want future generations to remember occupied cities like Nanjing & Singapore & GIs dying on Luzon when they do the asking -

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Brian F. Kelcey‏ @stateofthecity 9 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @stateofthecity @wellerstein

          - b/c it's one thing to say "it's immoral to have dropped those weapons;" (hell, I respect pacifists so why wouldn't I respect that question?). Quite another to frame it as if Truman had no urgent moral reasons to decide that one way or the other.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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