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wcrichton's profile
Will Crichton
Will Crichton
Will Crichton
@wcrichton

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Will Crichton

@wcrichton

Articulating the ineffable. Programming language theory 🤝 cognitive psychology. PhD @Stanford

he/him
willcrichton.net
Joined September 2011

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    Will Crichton‏ @wcrichton 21 Jul 2020

    Are there any programming languages with *intentionally* unsound static type systems?

    3:02 PM - 21 Jul 2020
    • 6 Retweets
    • 21 Likes
    • Simão Melo de Sousa Wilfred Hughes Albert Cohen yfzhe Akshay Gray_Jack Thanh Dinh Ta Marwan Burelle James Noble
    13 replies 6 retweets 21 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. nrc‏ @nick_r_cameron 21 Jul 2020
        Replying to @wcrichton

        Dart - covariant subtyping of arrays is unsound, but convenient and can be caught at runtime, iirc

        1 reply 1 retweet 14 likes
      3. Will Crichton‏ @wcrichton 21 Jul 2020
        Replying to @nick_r_cameron

        Great example. The point being that this is allowed, right? f : Array<Object> -> ... Array<int> a = ... f(a) // type checks Array<Object> b = a; b.push("string") // type checks & runtime error

        2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      4. Show replies
      1. rntz‏ @arntzenius 21 Jul 2020
        Replying to @wcrichton

        C.

        0 replies 0 retweets 10 likes
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      1. New conversation
      2. Josh Horowitz‏ @qualmist 21 Jul 2020
        Replying to @wcrichton

        Does TypeScript count? https://www.typescriptlang.org/docs/handbook/type-compatibility.html … says things like "The places where TypeScript allows unsound behavior were carefully considered", which sounds like what you're looking for.

        1 reply 0 retweets 12 likes
      3. Will Crichton‏ @wcrichton 21 Jul 2020
        Replying to @qualmist

        Will Crichton Retweeted Will Crichton

        It does, although I'm realizing "sound" is hard to characterize. In a PLT sense, Typescript statics + dynamics are collectively sound b/c anything not caught by type system is checked at runtime. No stuck states / UB / segfaults / etc.https://twitter.com/wcrichton/status/1285700061712785408 …

        Will Crichton added,

        Will Crichton @wcrichton
        Replying to @wcrichton @nick_r_cameron
        Hmm, the original tweet may be poorly phrased. This is the kind of example I want, but the Dart type system is still sound here when paired with runtime checks. Like soundness of gradual typing.
        6 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      4. Show replies
      1. New conversation
      2. Michael Williamson‏ @zwobble 21 Jul 2020
        Replying to @wcrichton

        TypeScript: https://www.typescriptlang.org/docs/handbook/type-compatibility.html#a-note-on-soundness …

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      3. Michael Williamson‏ @zwobble 21 Jul 2020
        Replying to @zwobble @wcrichton

        The function argument bivariance is the one that I come across most often day-to-day.

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. ℥ Ed L ℥‏ @fwoaroof 21 Jul 2020
        Replying to @wcrichton @BrianTRice

        Eiffel, somewhat infamously, intentionally allows unsound method calls.

        1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      3. ℥ Ed L ℥‏ @fwoaroof 21 Jul 2020
        Replying to @fwoaroof @wcrichton @BrianTRice

        Sorry, to be more precise, Eiffel alows a subclass to override a method with a method whose parameters have types that are subtypes of the parameter types of the base method.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      4. Show replies
      1. New conversation
      2. Kyle J Strand‏ @BatmanAoD 21 Jul 2020
        Replying to @wcrichton

        Wouldn't explicit UB in any ISO language (C, C++, etc) count?

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Will Crichton‏ @wcrichton 21 Jul 2020
        Replying to @BatmanAoD

        It does, although I've never been 100% clear on how intentional it is. I know of claims that it's necessary for compiler optimizations, but I haven't seen any arguments as to why.

        3 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
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