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wcrichton's profile
Will Crichton
Will Crichton
Will Crichton
@wcrichton

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Will Crichton

@wcrichton

Articulating the ineffable. Programming language theory 🤝 cognitive psychology. PhD @Stanford

he/him
willcrichton.net
Joined September 2011

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    1. Klaus Ostermann‏ @klauso3 2 Jan 2020

      Drawing two circles in "turtle" style and in "algebraic" style. Functional vs imperative programming in a nutshell. But which one is easier for beginners? Which one is better for beginners? Watching my kids using both, I think the answers to these two questions are different.pic.twitter.com/adDJULDufd

      5 replies 3 retweets 18 likes
      Show this thread
    2. Klaus Ostermann‏ @klauso3 2 Jan 2020

      I'd love to hear what Seymour Papert's take on this would have been, but maybe the Bootstrap/HTDP guys have an on opinion on this? @samth @ShriramKMurthi @rfindler

      3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      Show this thread
    3. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth 2 Jan 2020
      Replying to @klauso3 @ShriramKMurthi @rfindler

      I think turtle arithmetic is obviously a terrible idea, and that that answers the question about graphics too.

      3 replies 1 retweet 4 likes
    4. Klaus Ostermann‏ @klauso3 2 Jan 2020
      Replying to @samth @ShriramKMurthi @rfindler

      If that is so (and I don't necessarily disagree), then somebody (beyond the HTDP gang) should say it out loud. There's a whole bookshelf of introductory programming books using that approach... Did MIT (Logo, Scratch, ...) ruin programming education?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth 2 Jan 2020
      Replying to @klauso3 @ShriramKMurthi @rfindler

      The virtues of algebraic data instead of mutation as an interface has been expounded plenty, but that hasn't stopped almost everyone from teaching mutation-first.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Klaus Ostermann‏ @klauso3 2 Jan 2020
      Replying to @samth @ShriramKMurthi @rfindler

      I'm not sure I'd call turtle graphics "mutation-first". It's more about effects vs values. But I agree otherwise.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Will Crichton‏ @wcrichton 2 Jan 2020
      Replying to @klauso3 @samth and

      Both teach valuable skills though! Python/imperative (in Papert's vision) teaches metacognition through algorithm design. Children "teach" the turtle to move by introspecting how they would move to solve the same problem.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    8. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth 2 Jan 2020
      Replying to @wcrichton @klauso3 and

      1. It's possible to do turtle-style graphics with data instead of effects. 2. Once you do that the fact that it's more complicated than `beside` and `circle` is obvious. 3. I am 110% skeptical that this idea about "teaching the turtle to move" pans out in practice.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
      Will Crichton‏ @wcrichton 2 Jan 2020
      Replying to @samth @klauso3 and

      Learning science lit suggests that with proper guidance/scaffolding, Logo has a meaningful impact on metacognitive skills. (see https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/1986-31173-001.pdf …) A data-centric style still could be equal or better! But we need more evidence to be sure.

      2:08 PM - 2 Jan 2020
      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth 2 Jan 2020
          Replying to @wcrichton @klauso3 and

          I think we should describe those results as about "programming" without suggesting initially that specific details are that important.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. ShriramKrishnamurthi‏ @ShriramKMurthi 3 Jan 2020
          Replying to @samth @wcrichton and

          No, I think the claims are quite specific, and that's fine. Without evidence that other forms of programming have similar effects, there's no need, nor is it wise, to generalize to "programming".

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. Show replies
        1. New conversation
        2. ShriramKrishnamurthi‏ @ShriramKMurthi 3 Jan 2020
          Replying to @wcrichton @samth and

          The scaffolding is critical, as it is in just about any other transfer situation. Show me the scaffolding in most turtle curricula: very rare. Problem is people read "turtle" and skip "scaffold". But (different) scaffolds could work from many other settings too. »

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. ShriramKrishnamurthi‏ @ShriramKMurthi 3 Jan 2020
          Replying to @ShriramKMurthi @wcrichton and

          Not at all disputing your claim that this remains to be shown in a data-centric style. Just saying that papers like this provide a convenient basis for a bait-and-switch: the paper is the bait, the switch is ignoring the scaffolding (which is HARD).

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        4. End of conversation

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