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warrenm's profile
Warren Moore
Warren Moore
Warren Moore
@warrenm

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Warren Moore

@warrenm

Software engineer specializing in mobile graphics and augmented reality. Author of “Metal by Example”

San Francisco, CA
metalbyexample.com
Joined April 2008

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    1. Warren Moore‏ @warrenm Feb 26

      Having spent ~1hr getting acquainted with the MoltenVK SDK, I have to say that it’s quite straightforward to use, if verbose (because Vk). Here’s a cheeky little cube (3.2kLOC):pic.twitter.com/oCVYJmaqfv

      9 replies 11 retweets 78 likes
    2. Chris W‏ @_psonice Feb 26
      Replying to @warrenm

      3.2kLOC?!! Wtf! Even allowing for a lot of “pointless, but doing it by the book” code, thats… a lot past a lot. Comparison: My entire Metal-based IDE with UI, multipass rendering and such is 2,755 LOC.

      2 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
    3. Warren Moore‏ @warrenm Feb 26
      Replying to @_psonice

      It’s just this with all of the platform-specific stuff stripped: https://github.com/KhronosGroup/Vulkan-LoaderAndValidationLayers/blob/master/demos/cube.c … I think it could be tersified down to, perhaps, 700 LOC, but not much less.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Chris W‏ @_psonice Feb 26
      Replying to @warrenm

      Would be interesting to see how far it can be squeezed. Be surprised if it can’t be done in ~20 lines in metal. Doesn’t give me much faith in VK, its giving so much extra scope for bugs and performance issues to creep in :(

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Warren Moore‏ @warrenm Feb 26
      Replying to @_psonice

      It’s ~75 lines in Metal if you lean on MetalKit and Model I/O. That’s without golfing down to the bare minimum.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Chris W‏ @_psonice Feb 26
      Replying to @warrenm

      10:1. To me, a good API is clear and concise. Vulkan is failing very hard at concise :( Which tends to have a negative effect on clear too. Then again, it shows how nice Metal is!

      4 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Axel Gneiting‏ @axelgneiting Feb 27
      Replying to @_psonice @warrenm

      There is not much that could be removed from Vulkan without sacrificing control or performance. I would call that concise.

      2 replies 2 retweets 4 likes
    8. Axel Gneiting‏ @axelgneiting Feb 27
      Replying to @axelgneiting @_psonice @warrenm

      Metal does resolve image transitions and barriers at submit time. This leads to higher CPU cost and less flexible ways to schedule GPU work including missing async compute. Async compute will be a big thing in the future and I wonder how Apple can make that work.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Axel Gneiting‏ @axelgneiting Feb 27
      Replying to @axelgneiting @_psonice @warrenm

      Metal also does not let you manage the memory pools yourself and you have no good control over when uploads and sychronization happen. There is also no way to do bindless resources. You see, all of this "easy to use" has its downsides.

      3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      Warren Moore‏ @warrenm Feb 27
      Replying to @axelgneiting @_psonice

      Mhm. Give me a few weeks with the id Tech 6 code base and I’ll show you what performance with a terse API looks like. It’s not as dramatic as you’re representing.

      7:28 PM - 27 Feb 2018
      • 2 Likes
      • Andre Weissflog Luke Groeninger
      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Axel Gneiting‏ @axelgneiting Feb 27
          Replying to @warrenm @_psonice

          There is no way you would even get close to the performance on AMD GPUs. Async compute is a must.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Oscar Barenys‏ @oscarbg81 Feb 27
          Replying to @axelgneiting @warrenm @_psonice

          First missing async compute what slowdowns are we talking? Less than 20% gains normally.. second (may be wrong) but you should Epic UE4 source code.. they mentioned support for async compute on Metal on release notes long time ago maybe even before Metal2..

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Warren Moore‏ @warrenm Feb 27
          Replying to @oscarbg81 @axelgneiting @_psonice

          Yes. Also, this presumption that drivers can’t schedule work onto multiple queues intelligently is mostly ego protectionism. Fact is, there’s more future in APIs that do the work for you than in APIs that make you hand-hold through every step.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Axel Gneiting‏ @axelgneiting Feb 27
          Replying to @warrenm @oscarbg81 @_psonice

          We tried having that for a long time on Win. It was called DX11 and it was always a nightmare and in the way for AAA. DX12 and Vulkan both went into the opposite direction than what you are claiming. You can have that opinion, but I don't see it happening in relevant markets.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        6. End of conversation

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