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vgr's profile
Venkatesh Rao
Venkatesh Rao
Venkatesh Rao
@vgr

Tweets

Venkatesh Rao

@vgr

Conversational account. For work follow @ribbonfarm, @breaking_smart, @artofgig. Tweets are 90% vacuous views, apathetically held. Mediocritopian. IKEA builder.

Los Angeles, CA
venkateshrao.com
Joined August 2007

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    Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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    Plot and character are in some ways the commodity elements of fiction, and how-to books spend 90% of their words on those. But good genre fiction usually seems to center a non-basic element: LOTR: fake languages Culture: names of ships Star Trek: species This seems important.

    10:56 AM - 25 Nov 2020
    • 24 Retweets
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    • KJD Jules os katie micah.fyi Worried Wombat dobry Wayne Thorsen Eric J Ostroff
    21 replies 24 retweets 175 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        Plot and character are like a platform, but the centered non-basic element (non-basic as in stories can work without them) is the killer app. You don’t need any specific non-basic thing (few works develop fake languages as deeply as LOTR), but you do need some non-basic things.

        6 replies 2 retweets 30 likes
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      3. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        More examples: - Harry Potter: “magic physics” (laws governing magical objects/beings) - Discworld: political science opinions - Hitchhikers guide: absurdist fragments of history/geography (which is why the Guide is a good prop... a cheap device to hold the fragments)

        3 replies 2 retweets 31 likes
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      4. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        - Asimov: Laws (the 3 laws, which segue into the laws of psychohistory) - Le Guin: temporalities - PKD: simulations? Note these are not “themes” but ontological first class citizens

        2 replies 3 retweets 31 likes
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      5. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        Venkatesh Rao Retweeted  🎙 Piyush Maverick Tainguriya Customer Support  🎙

        I’m looking for non-singleton classes. The improbability drive is a key plot element but the only one of its class. Whereas for eg Harry Potter has dozens of magical objects/beings with laws.https://twitter.com/MangoZeus/status/1331676006134947840 …

        Venkatesh Rao added,

         🎙 Piyush Maverick Tainguriya Customer Support  🎙 @MangoZeus
        Replying to @vgr
        Imo the main element in Hitchhiker's is the improbabilty drive https://twitter.com/MangoZeus/status/1043803489904807939?s=19 …
        4 replies 0 retweets 16 likes
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      6. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        Another way to think about it is: non-basic elements provide a “third way” to start a story: 1. Work out the plot as an outline of beats (plot-driven) 2. Work out the characters as a set of biographical backstories (char driven) 3. Flesh out non-basic element (NBE-driven)

        2 replies 0 retweets 21 likes
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      7. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        Venkatesh Rao Retweeted Emily Suvada

        I agree these are part of world-building but a subset and importantly, overdeveloped beyond would-building needs. For eg every world needs an ontology and a naming scheme for things, but strategically centering them has an effect beyond just world building.https://twitter.com/emilysuvada/status/1331677349515988994 …

        Venkatesh Rao added,

        Emily Suvada @emilysuvada
        Replying to @vgr
        I'd tag these all as "worldbuilding", which there are less books on since it depends so much on the world, but plenty of talk about on panels, and in author interviews etc. I taught a workshop once about construction based on Plot, Character, Worldbuilding & their interactions.
        2 replies 1 retweet 12 likes
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      8. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        Perhaps we should call them world-animations. Subsets of world building that, if adequately overdeveloped, turn into engines of plot and character. Ship names are a life-force in Culture but in most books names just “do the job” they have to in world-building and nothing more.

        5 replies 1 retweet 11 likes
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      9. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        Like J. K. Rowling has fun names too, many of which are sly word play allusions (Durmstrang = Sturm und Drang = character of the school) but they don’t animate the world the way ship names in Culture do. A mere list of ship names evokes a powerful live world for Culture.

        3 replies 0 retweets 14 likes
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      10. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        In Freudian terms, I’m thinking these core non-basic world-animators are like the id of the world, and worldbuilding is more like superego. The plot and character are the ego.

        1 reply 1 retweet 10 likes
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      11. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        I suspect working the id is the most fun part of the writing for the author. Making up languages was the fun for Tolkien. Making up absurd Guide entries was the fun for Adams. Why: you can tell they’ve overdone it relative to supporting plot/character or portraying the world.

        2 replies 0 retweets 15 likes
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      12. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        The “brand” of the work in a marketing sense flows from this id element but cannot be cynically engineered. It has to come from an animating place of genuine fun-having. Authenticity if you will. Proof-of-fun. Costly signal that the author was in an abundant/extravagant mode.

        1 reply 2 retweets 21 likes
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      13. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        Genre fiction at least (if not literary) I think has to flow from a place of abundance for it to manifest escapist potential that sucks you in. This abundance is costly-signaled by essentially peacocking an element of the world-building to extremes.

        7 replies 0 retweets 16 likes
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      14. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        Venkatesh Rao Retweeted Kelly Digges

        I think the secret to Star Wars is actually special effects. As Lucas going on to do ILM reveals. The story is bad, the characters are not fun, and plot relies on Campbell too much as a crutch. But special effects... amazing advance for its time.https://twitter.com/kellydigges/status/1331684943336935424 …

        Venkatesh Rao added,

        Kelly Digges @kellydigges
        Replying to @kellydigges @vgr
        I'm having trouble with Star Wars, and wondering if you have to split it up by era in order to say anything coherent about it. The original trilogy is about cool spaceships, the prequel trilogy is mostly about politics, and the sequel trilogy gave up and is just about Star Wars.
        8 replies 0 retweets 17 likes
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      15. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        Venkatesh Rao Retweeted Emily Suvada

        Nerd-outability as a reader filter. The right kind of reader will add to the source-abundance of the work rather than simply draw sustenance from it. I guess that’s the logic of fan-fiction/fandom. Splillover/surplus effect.https://twitter.com/emilysuvada/status/1331686380750082048 …

        Venkatesh Rao added,

        Emily Suvada @emilysuvada
        Replying to @vgr
        This is totally it. I feel like it's a filter. The author takes a risk - nerding out over something they're genuinely passionate about - and whoever sticks around through it will have buy-in. They'll be in-grouped. Value of appealing strongly to some vs trying to appeal to all.
        1 reply 0 retweets 10 likes
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      16. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        Venkatesh Rao Retweeted Kevin Marks

        Non-basic id element “incluing”https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/1331697608042147846 …

        Venkatesh Rao added,

        Kevin Marks @kevinmarks
        Replying to @vgr
        It's also a kind of reading for world context the way you read a detective story for clues - Jo Walton called it "incluing" https://www.tor.com/2010/01/18/sf-reading-protocols/ …
        1 reply 1 retweet 6 likes
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      17. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        A good diagnostic question, in the spirit of Alan Kay “waste transistors” principle of personal computing is “what is this story willing to waste?” What is it willing to feature “too many” of? Culture = clever names.

        1 reply 2 retweets 18 likes
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      18. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        More examples: Futurama: Silly devices/gadgets/design fiction objects Simpsons: Arguably the couch gags+intro mini-story that triggers the main story, like “they go to the fair and Homer buys 1 dumbbell” South Park: “we learned something today” faux-morals

        1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
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      19. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        Rick and Morty: inter-dimensional cable and quick-sketched useless parallel universes which don’t do anything for the plot, like the farting-asses universe. Best example might be the brilliant pizza-universe set. There is NO good reason for this scenehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUBmEDAoGOE …

        2 replies 1 retweet 7 likes
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      20. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        Venkatesh Rao Retweeted Jonathan Korman

        What to call this principle? Spice-note?https://twitter.com/miniver/status/1331675875947937792 …

        Venkatesh Rao added,

        Jonathan Korman @miniver
        Replying to @vgr
        This is nifty and needs a name, like “spice note” or something: the fun flavor element which does a lot of the story work Star Wars: spaceship design Superheroes: costume design aSoIaF: house banners & words Agatha Christie: etiquette Wuxia: special weapons & attacks https://twitter.com/vgr/status/1331673021367480320 …
        1 reply 1 retweet 4 likes
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      21. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        Venkatesh Rao Retweeted mark safranski

        Secret sauce is perhaps too broad. 🤔 This is a narrower animating thing.https://twitter.com/zenpundit/status/1331703351097090055 …

        Venkatesh Rao added,

        mark safranski @zenpundit
        Tolkien’s secret sauce which he began doing even before he conceived of Middle Earth in 1917 while recovering from the Somme https://twitter.com/vgr/status/1331673021367480320 …
        4 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
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      22. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        Big mood? Generator? Flywheel? Root chakra? Idiopathy? Principle needs a clear statement too: “every successful genre story has an unnecessarily overbuilt world id-element.”

        3 replies 0 retweets 9 likes
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      23. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        The Rick and Morty example suggests an aspect. Every instance of the id-element suggests the gestalt of entire universe. All other world-elements have to vibe with that gestalt. You can get at this by asking: what is a nominally correct non-element if the set of id-elements?

        1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
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      24. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        What’s a ship-name that does NOT fit the Culture universe? Maybe USS Enterprise? What’s a language that does NOT fit Middle Earth? Minion language What’s a universe that does NOT fit R&M multiverse? A non-satirical universe maybe? This one is hard

        3 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
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      25. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        The flywheel aspect is important. One instance of the set should catalyze more instances. It should snowball into a gun game readers want to join in even if they lack the skill. Like ship names. Everybody has fun making up their own. Compound interest. Narrative network effect.

        1 reply 1 retweet 7 likes
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      26. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        Venkatesh Rao Retweeted Andy Raskin

        The collectible cards test. Yep. Or can it spawn a fanpedia.https://twitter.com/araskin/status/1331723171087618049 …

        Venkatesh Rao added,

        Andy Raskin @araskin
        Replying to @vgr
        Basically can you create a commercially viable series of collectible cards — a la Pokémon, baseball cards, etc?
        1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
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      27. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        Based on fiction I’ve written so far and enjoyed writing, I think my thing is “philosophy gadgets” — devices that embody an abstraction. Like my strategometer: a watch that indicates when you’re thinking strategically. I have such things in all my stories.

        1 reply 0 retweets 10 likes
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      28. Venkatesh Rao‏ @vgr Nov 25
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        More examples: Psych: 80s references Monk: OCD behaviors Burn Notice: “When you’re a spy...” tips

        7 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
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      29. End of conversation

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