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unclebobmartin's profile
Uncle Bob Martin
Uncle Bob Martin
Uncle Bob Martin
@unclebobmartin

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Uncle Bob Martin

@unclebobmartin

Software Craftsman

iPhone: 56.802658,9.868149
cleancoder.com
Joined October 2007

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    1. Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 4
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      Software is more like science than mathematics. Mathematical expressions are provable, scientific theories are merely demonstrable. Math is deductive. Science is empirical. Software is empirical. We demonstrate, but do not prove, correctness.

      61 replies 448 retweets 1,361 likes
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    2. Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 4
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      Static typing is an attempt to make software more mathematical. Type correctness is deductive and provable. However, type correctness does not imply behavioral correctness. Even when fully type correct the behavior must be demonstrated empirically.

      10 replies 21 retweets 118 likes
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    3. Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 4
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      This doesn’t make type systems useless. On the contrary, many people find type systems to be invaluable. However, it does mean that type systems do not change software from a science to a mathematics. In the end, software remains an empirical science.

      3 replies 11 retweets 55 likes
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    4. Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 4
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      Scientific theories are demonstrated through experiments. We trust those theories only when experimental evidence is so vastly overloaded that our confidence has so many nines that we can tolerate the occasional glitch.

      2 replies 8 retweets 42 likes
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    5. Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 4
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      In software those experiments are tests. We demonstrate correctness by executing enough tests to raise our confidence to a level that has so many nines we feel safe deploying.

      3 replies 9 retweets 72 likes
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      Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 4
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      There is no escape from this. Whether you use static, or dynamic typing, you must still demonstrate correctness by executing tests. Static typing does not reduce that number of tests, because those tests are behavioral and empirical.

      6:01 AM - 4 Jun 2019
      • 16 Retweets
      • 73 Likes
      • _tupol (λ. borkdude) Wedge_on_QA Mark Han Shyam Sunder Frank Wagner Jamir Araújo Dastrn musicfreak88
      11 replies 16 retweets 73 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 4
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          Thus, the testing burden is independent of typing. The number of tests you write and execute is unaffected by the type system of your language.

          25 replies 8 retweets 62 likes
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        3. Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 4
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          Every feature is a theory. Every such theory is verified by a battery of experiments in the form of tests. If you can write the code for the theory of a feature, you can write the tests are are the experiments that demonstrate that feature.

          5 replies 28 retweets 134 likes
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        4. Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 4
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          Science, FTW!

          14 replies 7 retweets 75 likes
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        5. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Mark Seemann‏ @ploeh Jun 4
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          Replying to @unclebobmartin

          I respectfully disagree with this. Some type systems allow null references. In those type systems, you must write tests that demonstrate how the SUT interacts with null input. In other type systems (e.g. Haskell) nulls don't exist. You can't meaningfully write an equivalent test

          3 replies 0 retweets 23 likes
        3. Mark Seemann‏ @ploeh Jun 8
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          Replying to @ploeh @unclebobmartin

          Here's an explicit example of how static typing makes some tests redundant.https://blog.ploeh.dk/2018/07/09/typing-and-testing-problem-23 …

          2 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
        4. 2 more replies
        1. Safta Catalin Mihai‏ @saftacatalin Jun 5
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          Replying to @unclebobmartin

          I had to write some tests in python asserting that the return type of some complicated code is what was expected. You wouldn't have to write those in a statically typed language.

          0 replies 1 retweet 2 likes
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        1. Pablo Pérez García‏ @politrons Jun 4
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          Replying to @unclebobmartin

          Strong static typing does not reduce test? Have you ever work with Haskell?. It completely reduce the defending programing in your system, and apart from test the behave of your data running in your code(human mistake in transformation it might happen)if compile it means it works

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
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        1. Ehouarn Perret‏ @PerretEhouarn Jun 8
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          Replying to @unclebobmartin

          I think the differences in terms of way of thinking between you and Mark illustrate what I call the gap in terms of mentality between Europeans and Americans (I didn't want to over generalize but I am doing it anyway...). "Practical" vs "A bit less practical but more technical"

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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        1. Antubis‏ @Antubis Jun 6
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          Replying to @unclebobmartin

          The number of tests needed at the boundary of your program I suppose is independent of typing, but when testing parts inside your app, types can reduce the number of tests needed (by designing types making some tests you’d write in the dynamic case impossible to write).

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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        1. yes man‏ @courieti Jun 6
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          Replying to @unclebobmartin

          Of course it does! You won’t have to test a function with String input if it’s statically typed by an Int.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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