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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 22 Apr 2018
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      Give me a guesstimate how much it would cost to turn speckhammer into a profitable professional azure compromise - $1M? You need staff, dev, ops, etc and it's risky. But once you patched it, seems really hard to recoup that. Instrumentation only measures opportunistic attempts.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    2. Dave dwizzzle Weston‏ @dwizzzleMSFT 22 Apr 2018
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      Replying to @taviso

      agree measurement has tons of limitations and also agree with costs. So let’s not measure anything?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 22 Apr 2018
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      Replying to @dwizzzleMSFT

      I want the data as much as you do, I just don't see how to get it. Is the popemobile useless because nobody has tried to shoot it? No, that doesn't prove the threat was overblown, if it wasn't there, someone could have tried...right?

      2 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
    4. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 22 Apr 2018
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      I think you're saying that because some random places aren't patched, we would have seen evidence of attacks there. My point is that isn't true, targeted attacks care about who the victim is, by definition.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. Dave dwizzzle Weston‏ @dwizzzleMSFT 22 Apr 2018
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      Replying to @taviso

      Nope I’m not asserting this at all. I’m saying it’s interesting we haven’t and I’m wondering the reasons why

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Alex Ionescu‏ @aionescu 22 Apr 2018
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      Replying to @dwizzzleMSFT @taviso

      Meltdown itself is really only useful operationally when combined with KASLR infoleak — which if you have, Meltdown only removes the need to reuse for subsequent reads. Apart from the whole “reading kernel secrets” issue (which requires a lot of finicky grooming), it’s hype imo.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Alex Ionescu‏ @aionescu 22 Apr 2018
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      Replying to @aionescu @dwizzzleMSFT @taviso

      There’s countless easier ways to elevate to medium IL without relying on obscure CPU sidechannels, and once there, there’s architectural Windows KASLR infoleaks and known medium->high elevation issues. Once at High there’s APIs for dumping kernel memory, at Gbit/s.

      1 reply 1 retweet 5 likes
    8. Alex Ionescu‏ @aionescu 22 Apr 2018
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      Replying to @aionescu @dwizzzleMSFT @taviso

      To clarify this is my theory in why we haven’t really seen this in the wild on Windows at least.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 22 Apr 2018
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      Replying to @aionescu @dwizzzleMSFT

      I think you're saying it's not especially useful for privesc on Windows. I agree, but that was never the major concern, right?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    10. Alex Ionescu‏ @aionescu 22 Apr 2018
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      If it’s not useful for privesc, then the only remaining thing I can think of is a hypervisor escape. But all it gives you is a read primitive so you still need hypervisor ASLR leak and an actual write primitive to do anything useful.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 22 Apr 2018
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      Replying to @aionescu @dwizzzleMSFT

      Yes, I think the major problem is attacking (not necessarily "escaping") co-resident vms.

      2:54 PM - 22 Apr 2018
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      • SwitHak Kaushal Banninthaya
      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. Alex Ionescu‏ @aionescu 22 Apr 2018
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          Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

          Meltdown should give you next to nothing useful for messing with a coresident VM in a Hyper-V system unless you already have an info leak as to where useful hyperV structures are, and even then you’d still need an actual write primitive. I think Windows is a special case here.

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
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