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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @taviso

      I'm on the record saying the AV industry needs to take attacks against (or leveraging) AV more seriously, but I think things there are some differences with browsers:

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    2. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten @taviso

      Firstly, browsers have been exploited in the wild, at scale for a long time. AV hasn't. Most people in AV admire your work (really!), but you're not in their threat model and I can't think of any large scale in the wild attacks leveraging AV.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    3. Justin Schuh  😷‏ @justinschuh 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten @taviso

      This tweet captures a number of the bad arguments that most AV proponents run afoul of. First, even the most popular AVs have market penetration capping out in the teens—so they simply don't have the scale to be exploited at scale, regardless how dangerously vulnerable they are.

      1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
    4. Justin Schuh  😷‏ @justinschuh 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @justinschuh @martijn_grooten @taviso

      Then there's the claim about browsers being exploited at scale in the wild, but I know for a fact we've never seen that in Chrome. And I have yet to see an AV provide evidence of where their products have in any way mitigated an exploit against an up-to-date browser.

      3 replies 0 retweets 10 likes
    5. Justin Schuh  😷‏ @justinschuh 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @justinschuh @martijn_grooten @taviso

      Then there's the broken AV incentive structure that actively trains users to engage in harmful behavior. Because good security UX means silent protection, and surfacing alerts only when you must demand action by the user. AV follows exactly the opposite of this best practice.

      1 reply 3 retweets 11 likes
    6. Justin Schuh  😷‏ @justinschuh 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @justinschuh @martijn_grooten @taviso

      Commercial AV is constantly popping "alerts" in order to "show value" and make upsells. This creates endless warning fatigue, so in the rare event the user faces a real security decision, they've already been trained to just click on through with abandon.

      2 replies 0 retweets 12 likes
    7. Justin Schuh  😷‏ @justinschuh 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @justinschuh @martijn_grooten @taviso

      Finally, we have to look at the abysmal quality of the average AV—and not just the security vulnerabilities—the performance and stability are also among the worst I've ever seen. And this is stuff running in your kernel, and getting injected into every process in your system!

      1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
    8. Justin Schuh  😷‏ @justinschuh 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @justinschuh @martijn_grooten @taviso

      We regularly deal with AV that: breaks ASLR/NX, leaks highly privileged interfaces into sandboxed processes, regresses TLS connections to the point of uselessness, makes outbound connections impossible, prevents renderer process launches entirely, and causes all manner of chaos.

      2 replies 0 retweets 10 likes
    9. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @justinschuh @taviso

      Hey, I know. I'm not saying this part isn't true. It frustrates me too. :-( And I really want to build bridges between the AV vendor community and people like you guys. And I'd be happy to hear of suggestions on how to do that.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    10. Justin Schuh  😷‏ @justinschuh 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten @taviso

      Here's my model for a healthy AV: The AV provides a scanning engine that runs in a tightly sandboxed, isolated container. The OS initiates the scans of data from any entrypoint sources. That leaves the OS responsible for system integrity, and the AV identifies malicious data.

      2 replies 6 retweets 26 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @justinschuh @martijn_grooten

      Is there *anything* more perfectly sandboxable than an antivirus engine? The fact that this isn't happening speaks volumes.

      10:18 AM - 19 Feb 2018
      • 8 Retweets
      • 39 Likes
      • Filip Procházka turningtechy Christian Blichmann Real AI FIPSmode Squad CopperheadOS Mudge Shakeel Mahate AzureCrimson
      6 replies 8 retweets 39 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 19 Feb 2018
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          Replying to @taviso @justinschuh

          Yes, incentives. I sometimes wish a company would see its profits drop every time you reported a vulnerability That would change things a lot.

          3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 19 Feb 2018
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          Replying to @martijn_grooten @taviso @justinschuh

          I wish there were a Pwn2own for anti-virus software. That's a great artificial incentive.

          2 replies 0 retweets 8 likes
        4. 12 more replies
        1. New conversation
        2. Pres. Skroob's password manager's abandoned dreams‏ @mvsamuel 19 Feb 2018
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          Replying to @taviso @damienmiller and

          Excuse my horrible ignorance but don't efficient file system scanners typically need block level read access?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Damien Miller‏ @damienmiller 19 Feb 2018
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          Replying to @mvsamuel @taviso and

          Maybe? But it's the bit that does the complex file format parsing that needs to be sandboxed, not the bit that does the fs access (IMO you'd probably want to keep that outside the sandbox)

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. 2 more replies
        1. Z Balazs‏ @zh4ck 19 Feb 2018
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          Replying to @taviso @justinschuh @martijn_grooten

          AV vendors usually say: sandboxing means performance impact, they have legacy code they can't sandbox and most end-users are not interested in this (and paying the costs involved with the upgrade). I am not here to judge if these are excuses or not

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
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        1. John Wilander‏ @johnwilander 19 Feb 2018
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          Replying to @taviso @justinschuh @martijn_grooten

          Running as root/admin means you’re important. Who doesn’t want to be important?

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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