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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @taviso @martijn_grooten

      Here is the problem, if antivirus *just* didn't work, nobody would care. The problem is it doesn't work *and* makes people with targeted attackers unsafe. If you fixed that second problem, fair enough. But is there *any* vendor in your industry who will implement sandboxing?

      6 replies 3 retweets 31 likes
    2. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @taviso @martijn_grooten

      Please explain to me why *browser* vendors take security more seriously than your industry, then I'll listen to your "stab vest" analogies. 🙄

      1 reply 0 retweets 13 likes
    3. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @taviso

      I'm on the record saying the AV industry needs to take attacks against (or leveraging) AV more seriously, but I think things there are some differences with browsers:

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    4. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten @taviso

      Firstly, browsers have been exploited in the wild, at scale for a long time. AV hasn't. Most people in AV admire your work (really!), but you're not in their threat model and I can't think of any large scale in the wild attacks leveraging AV.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    5. Justin Schuh  😷‏ @justinschuh 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten @taviso

      This tweet captures a number of the bad arguments that most AV proponents run afoul of. First, even the most popular AVs have market penetration capping out in the teens—so they simply don't have the scale to be exploited at scale, regardless how dangerously vulnerable they are.

      1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
    6. Justin Schuh  😷‏ @justinschuh 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @justinschuh @martijn_grooten @taviso

      Then there's the claim about browsers being exploited at scale in the wild, but I know for a fact we've never seen that in Chrome. And I have yet to see an AV provide evidence of where their products have in any way mitigated an exploit against an up-to-date browser.

      3 replies 0 retweets 10 likes
    7. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @justinschuh @taviso

      IE has been targeted by many exploit kits (so at scale). AV tends to be pretty good at blocking exploit kits. I'd expect most AV to be pretty bad against some zero-day exploit used against Chrome.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Joxean Koret‏ @matalaz 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten @justinschuh @taviso

      You can also expect all AVs to be pretty bad against some zero-day exploit used against them. Mostly, because no AV on earth has self-protections in place beyond "restart in case of crash".

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @matalaz @justinschuh @taviso

      Again: I have been saying for years to AV vendors that they should take the security of their products more seriously.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Kostis‏ @_costis 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten @matalaz and

      Am I wrong if I say that many malware are developed to bypass AVs, I do not think that there is any malware that aims for its detection. Moreover, AVs are there for the unsophistigated attacks

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @_costis @martijn_grooten and

      The problem isn't "we want to catch some unsophisticated attacks", that's fine with me. The problem is "we introduce a ton of serious problems and shouldn't have to solve them so we can catch unsophisticated attacks". That is *not* fine with me.

      10:13 AM - 19 Feb 2018
      • 1 Retweet
      • 9 Likes
      • Mudge Claudio Dekker Lukas Meuser Bruno Keith Chris VanAnda Sebastian Apelt Royce Williams Justin Schuh 😷 Kostis
      1 reply 1 retweet 9 likes
        1. Joxean Koret‏ @matalaz 19 Feb 2018
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          Replying to @taviso @martijn_grooten @justinschuh

          Joxean Koret Retweeted Joxean Koret

          I agree. And we don't need to think about, as @MalwareJake says, "esotheric scenarios". Just some quick examples that affect even to my grandma:https://twitter.com/matalaz/status/964952589539401728 …

          Joxean Koret added,

          Joxean Koret @matalaz
          Replying to @MalwareJake @jpgoldberg @imaguid
          BitDefender and its "secure web browser" (an old WebKit version without ASLR) that used to open every time you browsed to a known bank web page. Worst: Rising and its IE7 kernel based web browser set as default or Kingsoft with a Chrome browser fork (liebao) without sandbox.
          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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