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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten @taviso

      Firstly, browsers have been exploited in the wild, at scale for a long time. AV hasn't. Most people in AV admire your work (really!), but you're not in their threat model and I can't think of any large scale in the wild attacks leveraging AV.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    2. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten @taviso

      And secondly, AV needs to run with high privileges to be effective. A browser doesn't. That makes sandboxing a whole lot easier for browsers.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten

      Martijn, stop with this "out of our threat model" nonsense, you can't just call problems you don't want to fix "out of our threat model". Secondly, there is an active trade in antivirus exploits and there *have* been wild scale attacks against AV.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    4. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @taviso @martijn_grooten

      And that is *not* how sandboxing works!

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @taviso

      OK, I'm not going to argue about sandboxes, you know a lot more about those than I do. As for the threat model, I'm not defending the lack of attention, just explaining the incentives are different than for browsers.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten @taviso

      As for those wide scale attacks, which ones are you referring to? (Genuinely curious, I'm not claiming to know about every single attack.)

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten

      I mean, the witty worm is an obvious example from the past? We're not in the age of wasting zero-day on a worm anymore, we're in the age of selling it for exclusive use to well-funded adversaries.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    8. Bjarni R. Einarsson‏ @HerraBRE 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @taviso @martijn_grooten

      Does hijacking a virus scanner to spy on the contents of people's computers count here? The Kaspersky drama. The attack surface of A/V is also not limited to the code on the end user's machine anymore. (Apologies in advance, honestly not sure whether I'm off-topic or not.)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @HerraBRE @taviso

      Whatever you think of the "Kaspersky drama", I think the overwhelming majority of computer users don't have malware written by their employer own their computer with AV installed.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Bjarni R. Einarsson‏ @HerraBRE 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten @taviso

      Just like most users aren't harmed by mass surveillance, but there is a strong argument that the fabric of society is - the harm is still real and the vulnerability matters. But I'm happy to dismiss this as off-topic. :-)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 19 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @HerraBRE @martijn_grooten

      It's not off-topic, this is a problem their products introduced! They can't just dismiss every problem they don't want to solve as "outside our threat model". We don't consider head-on collisions to be in our threat model, so we're going to save some money and not install airbags

      9:50 AM - 19 Feb 2018
      • 1 Like
      • Bjarni R. Einarsson
      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. Bjarni R. Einarsson‏ @HerraBRE 19 Feb 2018
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          Replying to @taviso @martijn_grooten

          To be fair, I think my initial comparison was unclear. As I understood, the A/V engine watched all users and reported back. The fact that [we think] the attacker only cared about one user is mostly irrelevant. All users with files of interested were at risk. It's a large hole.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Bjarni R. Einarsson‏ @HerraBRE 19 Feb 2018
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          Replying to @HerraBRE @taviso @martijn_grooten

          Comparing to traditional malware, this is like infecting every single user with APT spyware that reports back iff it finds a particular file it is looking for... A/V impact assessment would rightly count every infected machine, even only one ever leaked data.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation

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