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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 23
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      Replying to @RichFelker @matthew_d_green and

      Sure, and I want a pony. Nobody is going to buy me one though, so why discuss it? 😛

      6 replies 0 retweets 13 likes
    2. Marcus Müller‏ @dEnergy_dTime May 23
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      Replying to @taviso @RichFelker and

      honestly, this is all a large log of whataboutisms. Sure, there's bugdoors. Ssource code are still easier to audit for bugs than binaries. If you don't have reproducible builds, you are left with the binary alone. So, I see a benefit. Complete solution? Nothing ever is.

      1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
    3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 25
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      Replying to @dEnergy_dTime @RichFelker and

      Obviously you can have source code without reproducible builds, what a ridiculous thing to say?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Rich Felker‏ @RichFelker May 25
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      Replying to @taviso @dEnergy_dTime and

      In practice you *don't* have source code without repro builds. You have approximate source code that differs from the actual source the binary was built from in various ways for various reasons.

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    5. Leif Ryge‏ @wiretapped May 26
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      Replying to @RichFelker @taviso and

      pic.twitter.com/Bd6ARRKxbw

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 26
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      Replying to @wiretapped @RichFelker and

      First, you need to explain why you want to use that specific binary so badly? Here is what I do if I don't trust a binary: I compile the source code, and use that binary. What is the attack against this system, which works today, that you're trying to solve?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Leif Ryge‏ @wiretapped May 26
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      Replying to @taviso @RichFelker and

      it's solving the problem that very few people have sufficient resources to build all the binaries for all the software on all of their systems, so in practice nearly everyone must rely on lots of other people's build servers. without repro builds, every build server is a SPOF.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Leif Ryge‏ @wiretapped May 26
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      Replying to @wiretapped @taviso and

      also, for organizations who do have sufficient resources (i.e. companies like your employer) it gives them the opportunity to make it much more difficult for a bad actor to compromise their own builds (even for internal and/or proprietary builds, potentially)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 26
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      Replying to @wiretapped @RichFelker and

      Yes, your proposal is that we need more more infrastructure to maintain, more access to audit, and more attack surface for real attacks that actually happen to defend against attacks that don't seem to happen. Do you understand why I think it's not a strong argument?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Leif Ryge‏ @wiretapped May 26
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      Replying to @taviso @RichFelker and

      for closed-source, i agree there's a tradeoff between ensuring build integrity and ensuring source secrecy. for the rest of the world, the only downside is that it is some work; i think it's worth it to eliminate SPOFs and am glad when @ReproBuilds et al receive funding to do it!

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 26
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      Replying to @wiretapped @RichFelker and

      Huh, that's the first time I've seen a pro-repro person acknowledge literally any flaw in it. Let me ask you this, do you agree that you can eliminate the same SPOFs *today*? I understand the benefits of repro builds, do you understand the problems?

      9:44 AM - 26 May 2020
      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Leif Ryge‏ @wiretapped May 26
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          Replying to @taviso @RichFelker and

          no, i don't understand how you can eliminate the builders-as-SPOFs without repro builds, and no, i don't see any downsides of repro builds for free software besides the engineering work required to get there.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 26
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          Replying to @wiretapped @RichFelker and

          OK, let me explain it for you. Remember, we're not discussing which solution is better (I'll get to that), just that it's possible. You already *have* to trust the source, and the system you're going to run the binary on, correct? Do you agree so far?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. 8 more replies
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        2. Leif Ryge‏ @wiretapped May 26
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          Replying to @taviso @RichFelker and

          you're saying you can eliminate the SPOF by building software oneself, but i assume you aren't saying it would be practical for everyone to actually do this. i'm saying repro builds enable everyone's phones and laptops to stop relying on build SPOFs in a way that is practical.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 26
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          Replying to @wiretapped @RichFelker and

          You don't have to build it yourself, you can choose someone you trust to build it. That is required in your system too, how do you imagine users will verify the build can be reproduced? They nominate a trusted party to check.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. 7 more replies

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