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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 25
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      Replying to @tgenov @mik235 and

      You do want to reinvent the building wheel though right? The packaging is trivial, and the distribution isn't difficult: You already have to stage official packages while you build and verify them, no?

      1 reply 1 retweet 0 likes
    2. Todor Genov‏ @tgenov May 25
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      Replying to @taviso @mik235 and

      I reproduce the build once. Checksum passes. I deploy the binary (that I now trust) 1000 times using existing distribution channels. Easy is more expensive than free.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 25
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      Replying to @tgenov @mik235 and

      Yes, agreed. So at the moment, you reproduce the build once, verify the checksum, then deploy the official binary. I'm saying, build it once, then deploy *your* binary. Where is the flaw in that system? You must already be able to run a command on every system, right?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Todor Genov‏ @tgenov May 25
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      Replying to @taviso @mik235 and

      I don't have a delivery mechanism for *MY* binary. I don't want to build it - it already exists.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 25
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      Replying to @tgenov @mik235 and

      Can you run a command on every system?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Todor Genov‏ @tgenov May 25
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      Replying to @taviso @mik235 and

      It's my infrastructure - In theory I can build anything to do anything. I don't want to.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 25
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      Replying to @tgenov @mik235 and

      If I understand correctly, you are seriously concerned your vendors build server is compromised. You're concerned enough that you're willing to rebuild every package manually, but you draw the line at copying files around? Do you at least agree it's not a *strong* argument?

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Leif Ryge‏ @wiretapped May 26
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      Replying to @taviso @tgenov and

      Leif Ryge Retweeted Leif Ryge

      What you seem to be missing is the fact that users don't need to rebuild anything themselves in order to benefit from reproducible builds:https://twitter.com/wiretapped/status/1265026855121420289 …

      Leif Ryge added,

      Leif Ryge @wiretapped
      Replying to @taviso @dEnergy_dTime and 9 others
      everyone will benefit from reproducible builds when software update mechanisms begin to require signatures from at least m of n of the expected builders. then the build infrastructure will no longer contain SPOFs which can independently modify software. bugdoors are orthogonal.
      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 26
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      Replying to @wiretapped @tgenov and

      What you seem to be missing is that you can get all the same security benefits *today* without having to spend millions developing new build systems. Do you agree we're just not seeing attackers produce tainted binaries from trusted but compromised build servers?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Leif Ryge‏ @wiretapped May 26
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      Replying to @taviso @tgenov and

      how, by having each endpoint build the code itself? aside from being impractical, that also doesn't provide the same assurance that they're all running good binaries. re: your q, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, and no, i do not agree. e.g. https://theintercept.com/2015/03/10/ispy-cia-campaign-steal-apples-secrets/ …pic.twitter.com/qDVLl7B1MI

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 26
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      Replying to @wiretapped @tgenov and

      Each endpoint could build, or you can get someone you already have to trust to build it for you, which is how it works today. That seems to be working pretty well, as you have to really stretch to provide any examples of it not working, correct?

      7:38 AM - 26 May 2020
      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Leif Ryge‏ @wiretapped May 26
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          Replying to @taviso @tgenov and

          Leif Ryge Retweeted Leif Ryge

          I have no idea who has root on my OS vendor's build infrastructure. Whoever they are, I would like to not need to trust them. Confidence in the source code is an entirely orthogonal problem to confidence that a binary came from the source it claims.https://twitter.com/wiretapped/status/1265038148289155077 …

          Leif Ryge added,

          Leif Ryge @wiretapped
          Replying to @taviso @dEnergy_dTime and 9 others
          "Someone you trust needs to build the software." This is it exactly! Without reproducible builds, your statement is true. But with reproducible builds, it becomes possible to avoid needing to pick a single someone to trust to build the software.
          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Leif Ryge‏ @wiretapped May 26
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          Replying to @wiretapped @taviso and

          repro builds are actually also useful for closed-source software: vendors like Apple and Microsoft should have multiple independent teams maintaining separate parallel build infrastructures, to remove opportunities for malfeasance which individual build engineers currently have

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. 4 more replies
        1. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 26
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          Replying to @taviso @wiretapped and

          I can provide lots of examples of backdoored source code, maliciously altered by attackers. Reproducible builds would all produce tainted binaries, and wouldn't prevent that, correct? E.g. https://lwn.net/Articles/57135/  https://www.rapid7.com/db/modules/exploit/unix/ftp/vsftpd_234_backdoor … etc.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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