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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 23
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      Replying to @julianor @coolhandle01 and

      I don't see how a supply chain attack is relevant. I think reproducible builds prove your build server isn't compromised and nothing else, it doesn't reduce the need to trust the vendor. As you already trust the vendor, what's wrong with codesigning or similar?

      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. halvarflake‏ @halvarflake May 23
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      Replying to @taviso @julianor and

      Is there value in being able to state "this binary is derived from that source code"? I think yes, independently of whether I am the vendor or user. But I won't argue that repro builds solve backdoors.

      1 reply 1 retweet 5 likes
    3. halvarflake‏ @halvarflake May 23
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      Replying to @halvarflake @taviso and

      Fwiw it's a bit sad that repro builds even need discussing; imo deterministic repro builds should be about as exotic as a working "ls".

      2 replies 0 retweets 11 likes
    4. halvarflake‏ @halvarflake May 23
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      Replying to @halvarflake @taviso and

      They don't do anything except establish a clear checkable source-to-binary link; but that seems like such a fundamental thing?

      1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
    5. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 25
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      Replying to @halvarflake @julianor and

      Hmm, but why? You have the source code and a binary that someone you trust says is the output from compiling that code. You trust them, but think their build infra might be compromised... So why not just build the binary and use that one? Doesn't that make the issue irrelevant?

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Jason V. Miller‏ @jasonvmiller May 25
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      Replying to @taviso @halvarflake and

      One does not simply "just build the binary." It feels like most build systems are a horribly opaque mess of dependencies, magical scripts, and other garbage. This is a problem with solving for sure but it's a significant practical hurdle IMO.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 25
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      Replying to @jasonvmiller @halvarflake and

      If you can't "just build the binary", then how are you going to verify it matches? The whole idea here is the outputs have to be bit-for-bit identical right?

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 25
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      Replying to @taviso @jasonvmiller and

      I'm saying: open source is good, having bit-for-bit reproducible builds is worthless. I think you're saying "It's reproducible builds or binaries only", but why.... can't we just have the source?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Billy Ray Valentine‏ @spongeclipper May 25
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      Replying to @taviso @jasonvmiller and

      Well, what about opaque distribution platforms like app stores? I see a use case for "how does Signal prove to users who download via the app store that the binary is built from source," no? (Assuming you trust all app store users get the same binary...)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 25
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      Replying to @spongeclipper @jasonvmiller and

      Those platforms are not designed for that, e.g. on android you would have to install them first. Then why not just use the binaries you built? If you have two devices and *assume* both got the same binary, but then why not *assume* the build is the same and not check?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 25
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      Replying to @taviso @spongeclipper and

      Besides, people are arguing for reproducible builds *everywhere*, not for these niche fantasy threat models. I really think the reality is, they're a solution looking for a problem. 🤷🏻‍♂️

      11:34 AM - 25 May 2020
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Billy Ray Valentine‏ @spongeclipper May 25
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          Replying to @taviso @jasonvmiller and

          I tend to agree. My only point was that they may have a (niche) use to allow third party verification of build origins. I’m not sure that’s feasible on any platform *today*, but it’s something you *could* build.

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 25
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          Replying to @spongeclipper @jasonvmiller and

          You could re-design those platforms so that it made sense, but at that point, why not redesign them to make sideloading easier and just use your own binaries... You have to build things anyway to get the benefit of reproducible builds!

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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