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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Chris Palmer‏ @fugueish May 22
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      Replying to @alexstamos @sleevi_ and

      My version of this question: what's the new hotness in protecting against any malicious dynamic code changes (including auto-updated code, which of course is a baseline security practice now), on any platform? E.g. is anyone really verifying Signal's reproducible builds...?

      1 reply 4 retweets 16 likes
    2. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 22
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      Replying to @fugueish @alexstamos and

      I don't really know what reproducible builds prove, that the build server wasn't compromised? If Signal were malicious, they could just add a bugdoor, so you still have to trust them not to be malicious. 🤷🏻‍♂️

      3 replies 2 retweets 20 likes
    3. Rene Mayrhofer‏ @rene_mobile May 23
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      Replying to @taviso @fugueish and

      Reproducible builds make most sense together with open source, of course. And it's of value even if nobody is constantly verifying the builds. Simply the point that they could mitigates the vector of a malicious builds server. Source level backdoors are certainly not addressed.

      1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
    4. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 23
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      Replying to @rene_mobile @fugueish and

      You can prove the build server isn't compromised, but you can't prove you're not trying to hide a backdoor, right? So users still have to trust you, and you could get the same benefit from getting a third party to privately repro the build for you...

      3 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
    5. Rene Mayrhofer‏ @rene_mobile May 23
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      Replying to @taviso @fugueish and

      I don't fully agree. It is still easier to hide a backdoor in (obfuscated) binary code than it is in (written-to-be-maintainable) source code. Config should ideally be included. And there are other code quality benefits of reproducible builds besides security (testing, deltas).

      2 replies 1 retweet 11 likes
    6. Rene Mayrhofer‏ @rene_mobile May 23
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      Replying to @rene_mobile @taviso and

      What have I done by disagreeing with @taviso? (Seriously, this is a very good centithread, and there are not many that still make sense beyond a 100 replies 🤔)pic.twitter.com/xhhO1Xfa7w

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 23
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      Replying to @rene_mobile @fugueish and

      I think people generally agree now that reproducible builds don't prevent backdoors. That's good, but now they want to argue for other fuzzier benefits, so it's harder to follow that!

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Rene Mayrhofer‏ @rene_mobile May 23
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      Replying to @taviso @fugueish and

      Oh, I never thought they _prevented_ backdoors, only that some of the easier vectors for introducing them are being mitigated. And that seems a good thing, especially in combination with my strong suspicion (only anecdata, though) that it helps code (or at least build) quality.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Rene Mayrhofer‏ @rene_mobile May 23
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      Replying to @rene_mobile @taviso and

      And since I can't see any real harm with reproducible builds (besides the work it takes to set up in the first place) - i.e. no runtime overhead etc - I don't see the usual discussion of cost of mitigation measures to factor in much in this debate. So, why not build reproducibly?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. DanielMicay‏ @DanielMicay May 23
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      Replying to @rene_mobile @taviso and

      The auditing / trust benefits are largely theoretical, esp. outside tiny projects... but reproducible builds are very useful nonetheless. Regularly helps me debug problems, analyze the impact of changes and even figure how to build things properly. Bonus: smaller delta updates.

      1 reply 1 retweet 2 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 23
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      Replying to @DanielMicay @rene_mobile and

      Let's not drift from the core discussion, maybe homeopathic remedies have the benefit of the placebo effect, but they don't cure disease. Do reproducible builds mean you don't need to trust the vendor, or eliminate backdoors? The answer is no, agreed?

      3:30 PM - 23 May 2020
      • 1 Like
      • N8Fear
      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. Rene Mayrhofer‏ @rene_mobile May 23
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          Replying to @taviso @DanielMicay and

          Repeating myself (it's getting too late here, stopping now): I don't see it as a binary answer. Reproducible builds let me trust the vendor less, make backdoors harder (by which extent is of course very debatable), and cost little. It's a spectrum of probabilities, not yes/no.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 23
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          Replying to @rene_mobile @DanielMicay and

          Well, we definitely disagree, but I've already explained why 😀 I think there's nothing else to add.

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. DanielMicay‏ @DanielMicay May 23
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          Replying to @taviso @rene_mobile and

          The theoretical benefits of reproducible builds are based on the theoretical benefits of open source. I don't think reality matches anything close to the hype. I don't think either does much to avoid trust in vendors/developers. I think both help making software better though.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. DanielMicay‏ @DanielMicay May 23
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          Replying to @DanielMicay @taviso and

          It depends a lot on the project. It gets much less useful as the code size / complexity of the project increases. It's more useful if the project uses a simple type/memory safe language where there are far fewer subtle ways of horrible things happening so it's easier to check.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. 8 more replies

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