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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

Tweets

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    1. Rene Mayrhofer‏ @rene_mobile May 23
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      Replying to @taviso @fugueish and

      I don't fully agree. It is still easier to hide a backdoor in (obfuscated) binary code than it is in (written-to-be-maintainable) source code. Config should ideally be included. And there are other code quality benefits of reproducible builds besides security (testing, deltas).

      2 replies 1 retweet 11 likes
    2. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 23
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      Replying to @rene_mobile @fugueish and

      Is it easier? The benefit of bugdoors isn't ease, it's that they're plausibly deniable, if you get caught, so what? You might even be able to convince people not to talk about it for months, and you can try again in a new patch, there's zero penalty.

      2 replies 4 retweets 23 likes
    3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 23
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      Replying to @taviso @rene_mobile and

      There might be non-security benefits of reproducible builds to *vendors*, but I don't see any benefit to users of being able to reproduce them. This is just because promising there's no backdoors make no sense when bugdoors are just so perfect?

      1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
    4. halvarflake‏ @halvarflake May 23
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      Replying to @taviso @rene_mobile and

      Fwiw I see benefits in reproducible builds to answer the question "is the binary on my machine built from this source"?

      3 replies 0 retweets 33 likes
    5. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green May 23
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      Replying to @halvarflake @taviso and

      Without reproducible builds, source analysis offers zero benefit. With reproducible builds, it offers some benefit. For example, crypto bugdoors that allow mass-scale passive decryption are possible (Dual EC, Fortinet) but are also extremely rare.

      2 replies 1 retweet 27 likes
    6. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 23
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      Replying to @matthew_d_green @halvarflake and

      What benefit does it offer? There's no penalty for making a bugdoor, so if you catch the vendor's bugdoor, they have to make a new one?

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    7. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 23
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      Replying to @taviso @matthew_d_green and

      To be clear, source analysis is useful to catch non-malicious vendors who make a mistake. If you're trying to determine if a vendor *is* malicious, src analysis provides no benefit, because there is no penalty for hiding a bugdoor....so how do repro builds help?

      1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
    8. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green May 23
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      Replying to @taviso @halvarflake and

      There are a lot of people involved in the build process. And a much smaller number of people involved in the development of specific portions of code. If you can isolate your security concerns to those areas (still aspirational) you can reduce your trusted dev base.

      2 replies 0 retweets 11 likes
    9. Rich Felker‏ @RichFelker May 23
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      Replying to @matthew_d_green @taviso and

      Even more true if the software in question is FOSS with minor vendor patching. Knowing the source they showed you corresponds to what they shipped lets you limit audit to their patches.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    10. Rich Felker‏ @RichFelker May 23
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      Replying to @RichFelker @matthew_d_green and

      Vendors lying about extent to which they modified FOSS in their products is a huge issue repro builds fully fixes, and is absolutely relevant to approach to evaluating safety.

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso May 23
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      Replying to @RichFelker @matthew_d_green and

      If you don't trust the vendor to tell the truth, how can you trust them not to insert a bugdoor?

      10:11 AM - 23 May 2020
      • 3 Likes
      • M Shakeel Mahate 🏳️‍⚧️::🦀::😷::Diana says BLM 🍾+🔥=🥓 A🐷AB
      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Rich Felker‏ @RichFelker May 23
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          Replying to @taviso @matthew_d_green and

          Threre's a big difference in trust to be nonmalicious and trust to be competent and not hiding embarrassing things.

          1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
        3. Rich Felker‏ @RichFelker May 23
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          Replying to @RichFelker @taviso and

          But if you have proof the patches are correct & scope is auditable you *don't have to trust*.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. 20 more replies

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