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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. thaidn‏ @XorNinja Apr 8
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      Replying to @durumcrustulum @alexstamos and

      The Internet needs Binary Transparency, like CT but for software packages. Until then, desktop clients provide the same E2EE assurance as browser clients. W/o auto updates the former are even riskier 'cause no way to fix bugs. W/ auto updates they are not better than the latter

      4 replies 2 retweets 6 likes
    2. Thomas H. Ptacek‏ @tqbf Apr 8
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      Replying to @XorNinja @durumcrustulum and

      This just isn’t true; saying it is like saying there is no such thing as E2EE at all, because web-based E2EE is trivially, transparently intercepted by providers.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    3. Thomas H. Ptacek‏ @tqbf Apr 8
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      Replying to @tqbf @XorNinja and

      Someone ought to put together a public model of an E2EE WebRTC client just so we can demonstrate how straightforward the intercept attack is here.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    4. thaidn‏ @XorNinja Apr 8
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      Replying to @tqbf @durumcrustulum and

      Why isn't backdooring a desktop client as straightforward? One can argue well users have to install the update, but desktop clients are required by the same security people to have auto updates :)

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Thomas H. Ptacek‏ @tqbf Apr 8
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      Replying to @XorNinja @durumcrustulum and

      Because installing updates is harder than intercepting a browser WebRTC app, in ways I seriously think we just need a public model to show.

      4 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    6. thaidn‏ @XorNinja Apr 8
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      Replying to @tqbf @durumcrustulum and

      Chrome, Firefox, etc. can push updates to my machine without me doing anything. What you're saying is if I have RCE on a machine, it's hard for me to control that machine. We all know that it's nonsense.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Thomas H. Ptacek‏ @tqbf Apr 8
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      Replying to @XorNinja @durumcrustulum and

      That’s not at all what I’m saying. I am very aware that Google has RCE on my device by dint of me running Chrome. I do not assume that of _every website I interact with_.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    8. Thomas H. Ptacek‏ @tqbf Apr 8
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      Replying to @tqbf @XorNinja and

      (i’ll trim the cc list from this point, sorry)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. thaidn‏ @XorNinja Apr 8
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      Replying to @tqbf @durumcrustulum and

      We're talking about a single website, that is Zoom. We're comparing Zoom desktop client vs Zoom browser client. You're saying that the latter is easier to compromise. I'm saying that it is as easy or as hard as the former.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    10. Thomas H. Ptacek‏ @tqbf Apr 8
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      Replying to @XorNinja @durumcrustulum @alexstamos

      I don’t think you really believe this, because if you did: no E2EE app is meaningfully E2E secure. Browser E2EE is trivially, transparently intercepted.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Apr 8
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      Replying to @tqbf @XorNinja and

      You mean it's easier for the provider to secretly disable E2E in a browser app? Not sure about trivial, but I think I agree, easier to target who gets the broken bits and unheard of to compare integrity, etc, etc. However, it seems moot because of bugdoors! 😛

      1:13 PM - 8 Apr 2020
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      • Erka Koivunen Deirdre Connolly¹
      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
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        2. Thomas H. Ptacek‏ @tqbf Apr 8
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          Replying to @taviso @XorNinja and

          I wonder how much of this is due to my model being “iOS app versus browser app” and Thai’s being “Electron desktop app vs browser app”. I won’t run desktop Signal, by way of example.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Apr 8
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          Replying to @tqbf @XorNinja and

          I agree it would be easier to do it the way you're envisioning, or more importantly, harder to get caught. I really think it would be crazy to not use a bugdoor though, so seems irrelevant. I like to use the Signal bug that could enable the microphone on any device as an example.

          1 reply 1 retweet 2 likes
        4. 1 more reply
        1. Thomas H. Ptacek‏ @tqbf Apr 8
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          Replying to @taviso @XorNinja and

          Yes, materially easier, much easier, so easy a provider could do it casually. And that they could not in fact accomplish this as easily with a native app.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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