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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 19
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      If we can today implement perfect security boundaries such that persistence is no longer of any value, then great, we should do that. But I don't believe that's the current reality, and until then, I'm a proponent of defense-in-depth of which non-persistence is a part.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 19
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      Replying to @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

      It *is* the reality that we have to choose which mitigations and security boundaries we want to support. The benefit of non-persistence is negligible, and only applies in very contrived scenarios.... Is that really "defense-in-depth"? The term has lost all meaning lol.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 19
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      The cost to develop/support each security measure is not equal. I'd rather have non-persistence now and perfect security in 10 years than have persistence now and perfect security in 9.5 years.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 19
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      Replying to @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

      Yes, I get that you are all-in on this buzzword. If the contrived scenarios you have to invent to justify it don't convince you that's all it is, then I don't know what will!

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 19
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      I understand that these scenarios don't necessarily apply to you, but they do apply to many of your customers.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 19
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      Replying to @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

      That's excellent, please describe this scenario? The scenario you've come up with so far is "Attacker *only* wanted some data that doesn't exist yet, won't exist before they reboot their phone next, nothing else of value available and attack is only possible once for some reason"

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 19
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      Evil maid targeting Android vuln that requires physical access, with objective of recording a future phone call. (Not to say there isn't anything else of value, but let's say primary objective is recording a specific future call.) Feel free to ask TAG for more examples :)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 19
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      Replying to @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

      Right, here are the contrivances: Attacker only has one possible objective, and can't simply pivot to something else. Attacker only has one opportunity, can't just do it again. People don't reboot their phones (I reboot mine once a month for patches).

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 19
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      I understand that you think that this example is contrived; I'm saying it's not contrived for certain targets (diplomats, etc.) and certain attackers (APTs, etc.). Glad we can respectfully disagree with each other though. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 19
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      Replying to @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

      Right, so because this happens to "many" people, do you have a citation? An APT that only has proximal exploits, is only interested in data that doesn't exist yet, and won't exist for at least a month, and a good reason why they cannot simply pivot to something else.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 19
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      Replying to @taviso @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

      I think I can come up with contrived scenarios to justify any mitigation, no matter how ridiculous. I think it makes sense to have realistic, non-contrived stories to justify these things, wouldn't you agree?

      8:21 AM - 19 Feb 2020
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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        2. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 19
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          Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

          I didn't say the APT _only_ has proximal exploits, nor that they're _only_ interested in data that doesn't yet exist, nor that they _can't_ pivot. Maybe they don't want to burn a remote 0-day; maybe their _primary_ objective is specific future data on this device.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 19
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          Replying to @JasonGeffner @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

          And yes, defenders and mitigation developers need to prioritize their defenses. My entire point is that non-persistence shouldn't be ignored as a defensive measure.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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