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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

      In your opinion, is that a common issue? Attackers only having a single chance to compromise, and only want data that doesn't exist yet, and won't exist before the next normal reboot (let's say, a month for patch Tuesday) - and no other way to leverage a full compromise?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    2. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 18
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      Common enough in the APT space to make non-persistence a worthwhile defense-in-depth measure.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

      Hah, it was rhetorical, it's not common at all. This kind of minor inconvenience happens literally all the time, some patch breaks some technique - exploitation still continues, attackers simply adjust.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 18
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      If the defender can force the attacker to have to use a different technique then that's still a win for the defender.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

      Disagree, mitigations are attack surface too, they add complexity and technical debt, so their value must be carefully considered. It's trivial to force attackers to incur one time costs, but it's not free for defenders. The benefit here is pretty negligible.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 18
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      Right, not all mitigations are created equally. Most all mitigations have some cost/risk so defenders must choose carefully.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

      Right, it sounds like we agree on that. How about this - don't you think we can do better than randomly interrupting persistent attacks, if we're choosing security boundaries to get supported?

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 19
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      If we can today implement perfect security boundaries such that persistence is no longer of any value, then great, we should do that. But I don't believe that's the current reality, and until then, I'm a proponent of defense-in-depth of which non-persistence is a part.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 19
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      Replying to @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

      It *is* the reality that we have to choose which mitigations and security boundaries we want to support. The benefit of non-persistence is negligible, and only applies in very contrived scenarios.... Is that really "defense-in-depth"? The term has lost all meaning lol.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 19
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      The cost to develop/support each security measure is not equal. I'd rather have non-persistence now and perfect security in 10 years than have persistence now and perfect security in 9.5 years.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 19
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      Replying to @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

      Yes, I get that you are all-in on this buzzword. If the contrived scenarios you have to invent to justify it don't convince you that's all it is, then I don't know what will!

      7:38 AM - 19 Feb 2020
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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        2. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 19
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          Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

          I understand that these scenarios don't necessarily apply to you, but they do apply to many of your customers.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 19
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          Replying to @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

          That's excellent, please describe this scenario? The scenario you've come up with so far is "Attacker *only* wanted some data that doesn't exist yet, won't exist before they reboot their phone next, nothing else of value available and attack is only possible once for some reason"

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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