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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Dave dwizzzle Weston‏ @dwizzzleMSFT Feb 18
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      Replying to @taviso

      I mean you do have a point where the attack originated on the end target. In other scenarios, losing persistence on a foothold you are pivoting from to a broad network compromise is an actual cost driver.

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    2. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @dwizzzleMSFT

      I'm pretty skeptical there's any benefit. If today's playbook assumes persistence is trivial, then sure, there's a one-time cost to re-tool when that changes, but that's true of lots of low-quality mitigations...

      2 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
    3. Dave dwizzzle Weston‏ @dwizzzleMSFT Feb 18
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      Replying to @taviso

      What do you mean by retool in this case? Find a new method to achieve persistence or change approach to not assume persistence?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @dwizzzleMSFT

      It doesn't seem like much more than a minor inconvenience, so just changing approach. We're on the same page that making "persistence" hard means an attacker has a full chain, but after reboot the device is in a known-good state, and attacker can just re-compromise?

      3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 18
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      Yes but that requires the attacker to still have access to the target, which is often not the case.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 18
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      Replying to @JasonGeffner @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      Also gives the victim's defenders a chance to detect each re-compromise (assuming detectable). And gives the victim the chance to patch or otherwise mitigate between each re-compromise (assuming protectable).

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

      That doesn't make any sense, attackers already need to avoid detection, and defenders can already reimage and patch or mitigate. This "persistence" thing just seems buzzwordy to me.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 18
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      Avoiding detection N times is harder than avoiding detection 1 time (especially with N spanning multiple days/weeks/months). An attacker who gets a persistent foothold can prevent patching or create another backdoor, but w/o persistence they need to keep recompromising.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

      This still makes no sense. Unless you are proposing rolling hourly reboots, then you need to be detected before taking action and resetting to a known good state, right?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 18
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      Not proposing hourly reboots :) But some device classes (phones, for example) do get restarted more than others (old-school monolithic web servers).

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

      Sure, perhaps weekly maybe daily at a stretch, isn't being compromised that long bad enough? I know I wouldn't feel much better if you told me an attacker had kernel code exec, but only for a few days!

      6:15 PM - 18 Feb 2020
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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        2. Jason Geffner‏ @JasonGeffner Feb 18
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          Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

          Depends on the attacker's objectives. If it's stealing your browser's current cookies then a few seconds is more than enough. But if objective is capturing conversations or waiting for corporate earnings numbers to become available then attacker needs to focus on long-term.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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          Replying to @JasonGeffner @dwizzzleMSFT

          Right, this is an example of a minor change in approach - you recompromise after the phone is rebooted, or wait until you knew earnings are about to be released. Would you agree that lack of long term persistence does not prevent those two attacks?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. 26 more replies

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