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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Dave dwizzzle Weston‏ @dwizzzleMSFT Feb 18
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      Replying to @taviso

      I mean you do have a point where the attack originated on the end target. In other scenarios, losing persistence on a foothold you are pivoting from to a broad network compromise is an actual cost driver.

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    2. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @dwizzzleMSFT

      I'm pretty skeptical there's any benefit. If today's playbook assumes persistence is trivial, then sure, there's a one-time cost to re-tool when that changes, but that's true of lots of low-quality mitigations...

      2 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
    3. Dave dwizzzle Weston‏ @dwizzzleMSFT Feb 18
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      Replying to @taviso

      What do you mean by retool in this case? Find a new method to achieve persistence or change approach to not assume persistence?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @dwizzzleMSFT

      It doesn't seem like much more than a minor inconvenience, so just changing approach. We're on the same page that making "persistence" hard means an attacker has a full chain, but after reboot the device is in a known-good state, and attacker can just re-compromise?

      3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Richard Johnson‏ @richinseattle Feb 18
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      For one-click or worse exploits that's a concern.. you'd want to persist in the target environment somewhere privileged enough to reinject without click if not the actual target device. You need a bigger inventory of exploits and take the observable risk of attacking environment

      1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
    6. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @richinseattle @dwizzzleMSFT

      Not sure I agree, persistence isn't the goal, the attacker wanted something (e.g. access to data). I don't understand the rationale behind "Don't worry, the attacker achieved their goal, but if you reboot they will be slightly inconvenienced!". Well, thanks....?

      4 replies 1 retweet 9 likes
    7. Richard Johnson‏ @richinseattle Feb 18
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      We can't presume a gov't only needs access once or that the time in which they can deploy the exploit is the same time in which they need access to the device. All we know is the goal is to gain access, not for what reason or how long.

      1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
    8. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @richinseattle @dwizzzleMSFT

      Um.... Isn't presuming how long an attacker requires *exactly* what you're doing? I'm saying, that they achieved full compromise, why do you presume that isn't sufficient?

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Richard Johnson‏ @richinseattle Feb 18
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      Because the discussion was about persistence already. I'm not introducing the concept, you're trying to close the door on that part of the convo. Since we can't know if it's relevant, both positions are equally wrong :p

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    10. isaac‏ @_wirepair Feb 18
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      Replying to @richinseattle @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      Monitoring journalists is a pretty obvious use case here. If it's a obvious chain, like send message -> open file it's probably not something you'd want to do more than once.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @_wirepair @richinseattle @dwizzzleMSFT

      Three issues: firstly, isn't a complete compromise bad enough? Secondly, "anti-persistence" just means it's easier to reset to a known good state than reimaging, unless you're proposing rolling reboots, so what? Thirdly, don't journalists open lots of documents? Easy to repeat.

      6:11 PM - 18 Feb 2020
      0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes

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