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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Dave dwizzzle Weston‏ @dwizzzleMSFT Feb 18
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      Dave dwizzzle Weston Retweeted Lorenzo Franceschi-Bicchierai

      Persistence as a security boundary should be a goal of all modern operating systems. When breaking down costs/time spent during redteam ops, gaining persistence on integrity protect partitions is a top cost driver for attackershttps://twitter.com/lorenzofb/status/1229798896051904512 …

      Dave dwizzzle Weston added,

      Lorenzo Franceschi-BicchieraiVerified account @lorenzofb
      I can confirm. Someone who works at a premiere shop that sells 0days to governments told me persistence is the hardest thing on iOS. https://twitter.com/botherder/status/1229798017320071171 …
      7 replies 38 retweets 154 likes
      Show this thread
    2. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @dwizzzleMSFT

      Yep, sure everyone will love hearing that all their data has been stolen, but there's no need to worry because if you reboot they'll have to run the exploit again. 🙃

      3 replies 0 retweets 19 likes
    3. Dave dwizzzle Weston‏ @dwizzzleMSFT Feb 18
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      Replying to @taviso

      I mean you do have a point where the attack originated on the end target. In other scenarios, losing persistence on a foothold you are pivoting from to a broad network compromise is an actual cost driver.

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    4. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @dwizzzleMSFT

      I'm pretty skeptical there's any benefit. If today's playbook assumes persistence is trivial, then sure, there's a one-time cost to re-tool when that changes, but that's true of lots of low-quality mitigations...

      2 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
    5. Dave dwizzzle Weston‏ @dwizzzleMSFT Feb 18
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      Replying to @taviso

      What do you mean by retool in this case? Find a new method to achieve persistence or change approach to not assume persistence?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @dwizzzleMSFT

      It doesn't seem like much more than a minor inconvenience, so just changing approach. We're on the same page that making "persistence" hard means an attacker has a full chain, but after reboot the device is in a known-good state, and attacker can just re-compromise?

      3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Richard Johnson‏ @richinseattle Feb 18
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

      For one-click or worse exploits that's a concern.. you'd want to persist in the target environment somewhere privileged enough to reinject without click if not the actual target device. You need a bigger inventory of exploits and take the observable risk of attacking environment

      1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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      Replying to @richinseattle @dwizzzleMSFT

      Not sure I agree, persistence isn't the goal, the attacker wanted something (e.g. access to data). I don't understand the rationale behind "Don't worry, the attacker achieved their goal, but if you reboot they will be slightly inconvenienced!". Well, thanks....?

      2:49 PM - 18 Feb 2020
      • 1 Retweet
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      • Bbi Lam Jason Mulligan Dominik Sabri Johan Johansson BoredCold Cyber Riiiik Justin
      4 replies 1 retweet 9 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Richard Johnson‏ @richinseattle Feb 18
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          Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT

          We can't presume a gov't only needs access once or that the time in which they can deploy the exploit is the same time in which they need access to the device. All we know is the goal is to gain access, not for what reason or how long.

          1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso Feb 18
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          Replying to @richinseattle @dwizzzleMSFT

          Um.... Isn't presuming how long an attacker requires *exactly* what you're doing? I'm saying, that they achieved full compromise, why do you presume that isn't sufficient?

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. 3 more replies
        1. D̒͂̕ᵈăᵃn̕ᶰ Ť̾̾̓͐͒͠ᵗe͗̑́̋̂́͡ᵉn̅ᶰtᵗl̀̓͘ᶫe̓̒̂̚ᵉrʳ‏Verified account @Viss Feb 18
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          Replying to @taviso @richinseattle @dwizzzleMSFT

          I love this thread :Dpic.twitter.com/6zVyucDSJh

          0 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
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        1. Jason Syversen‏ @JSyversen Feb 18
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          Replying to @taviso @richinseattle @dwizzzleMSFT

          I think it’s somewhere in between. Maybe they DO want access, because they want to delete that SMS auth message before you see it. Or want to track things in the present or future (like location or audio). Or pre-position for a future need. Not always read and exit.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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        1. Sabri‏ @pwnsdx Feb 18
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          Replying to @taviso @richinseattle @dwizzzleMSFT

          Totally agree, 0-click non-persistent is even better in case the attacker wants to stay stealth or just dump the data. And if not, he can just reexploit it vuln as long as it's not patched

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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