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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 11 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @matthew_d_green @rmhrisk

      As a thought experiment, if you had to choose between a key escrow system accessible to due process (with all the risks you've spelled out) xor eliminating criminal/state access to 0day exploits, which would you choose? (I'm not making a point, just curious about your position).

      6 replies 2 retweets 23 likes
    2. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @matthew_d_green @rmhrisk

      it sounds like you don't get a choice about the latter though, so you may as well just say "no" to both 😜

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @saleemrash1d @matthew_d_green @rmhrisk

      Right, it's just a thought experiment. It will never happen, but if the USG committed to only using a lawful key escrow system, it might move the 0day market as billions of dollars fall out of it. Maybe that would have some benefits, but the economics seem complicated. 🤷🏻‍♂️

      3 replies 0 retweets 8 likes
    4. Ruud Schramp‏ @idafanatic 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @saleemrash1d and

      It would be great if multiple options for such escrow are investigated eg. add multi-party, add physical access, add delay/proof of work, make options to scale bad, etc. Problem is, its political sensitive, academicly inpopular, no one wants to get burned by naming the options.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @idafanatic @saleemrash1d and

      Yeah, I don't want key escrow, but it does bother me that some vocal opponents appear to be encouraging an increase in state 0day usage as an alternative.

      4 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Paul Pols‏ @paulpols 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @idafanatic and

      Key escrow is not a full alternative to 0days though: if you’re gathering evidence or intell you can’t always expect to have physical access to a device.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @paulpols @idafanatic and

      You misunderstood, I said you can use 0day to achieve anything that key escrow can do - not the other way around.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Paul Pols‏ @paulpols 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @idafanatic and

      Hehe I know, my point is exactly that: it doesn’t work the other way around. Your worries about 0day use will not be solved by key escrow.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @paulpols @idafanatic and

      I don't think I claimed that, which tweet are you referring to?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Paul Pols‏ @paulpols 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @idafanatic and

      Well in that case: why would you argue for key escrow if it doesn’t fix your 0day worries? The primary use case for KE appears to be for physical access to locked phones, which are not the most risky 0days imho.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @paulpols @idafanatic and

      I think you might have me confused with someone else, I'm opposed to key escrow. My concern is that people are encouraging more exploit hoarding as a substitute for key escrow, which sounds like might be what you're doing?

      11:46 AM - 15 Dec 2019
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Paul Pols‏ @paulpols 15 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @idafanatic and

          I used to be a red teamer. When we found 0days, we used them for the assignment at hand, but also reported them to clients and vendors ASAP. Would you find that an amendable model?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @paulpols @idafanatic and

          Fixing them is the important thing, because you have no way of preventing people you disapprove of from finding them as well. I'm not sure if I can say it's ok to exploit them while being fixed, is it okay for UAE to do that too?

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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